QF announce non-stop Perth-London B787 Services

[nlagalle]

I really like the concept of Aus-LHR without a ME stop and I'm glad we are back to BA code shares to Europe. I am just disappointed with the implementation: too few WCs, no PER Flounge, no F, Y seats too narrow, timing etc. Given QF places itself at the premium end of the market and with a premium price for this flight, the offerings on board are just not premium. Those who would fly a LCC to LHR may be more focussed on the $ cost only but most of my contacts (who fly Y) look a bit more widely. None will fly on this B787 not least because they have no desire to sit in a 17.2" seat.
I have also noticed the latest spin on the QF B787 web pages: "Our Economy cabin will feature 166 seats, arranged in a 3-3-3 formation. This arrangement will allow our customers to enjoy greater aisle access on board."
How is 3-3-3 greater aisle access? 3 from the aisle is as bad as it gets and the original 2-4-2 deisgn for the B787 was no more than 2 from the aisle" is much better…
Its great that QF are looking to innovate.I just wonder at the market research, especially given teh almost uniform view here and elsewhere, on the new QF9/10

Given you or anyone else has sat in the cabin you seem to assert you know all about it. I'd suggest you wait until you actually fly in it before just writing it off. Also many airlines are dumping F. J is becoming the new F in many instances. Also given PER will eventually be in a new terminal you can assume it will get a brand new lounge(s), heck the Per J lounge is up there as the best in AU.

As for no one flying it, how many people said they'd never fly through DXB? Yet plenty do. When people see they can fly from AU direct into Europe that will certainly entice many.

As for BA codeshares, they are still inferior to what you'll get on EK. Best thing WF did was dump that

 

[oz_mark]

I don't think they are codeshares, but options to connect to BA flights from London are on offer.

As time progresses, and we reach the timeframes for EK availability, you'll see the the codeshares on EK return. I think people aren't familiar with the release of flights so far into the future....

If you look at the 24 March next year for say Melbourne to Paris you'll see both options in the mix.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Given you or anyone else has sat in the cabin you seem to assert you know all about it. I'd suggest you wait until you actually fly in it before just writing it off.

Plenty of people have sat in 3-3-3 787s. There aren't many positive reviews. I don't agree that 'no one' will fly it though... plenty will... it not for the QC lounge access and SCs.

 

[nlagalle]

Plenty of people have sat in 3-3-3 787s. There aren't many positive reviews. I don't agree that 'no one' will fly it though... plenty will... it not for the QC lounge access and SCs.

Qantas have crunched the numbers and seems that more than enough will fly it to go to the effort of setting up the route, base and convincing the airport to make the dom side international too until the new terminal is built on the other side.

 

[Franky]

What's that going to do?

Continues the speculation that Quickstatus alluded to. :shock:

 

[Quickstatus]

Yes a lot of speculation and hype here!

 

[straitman]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

The number of travellers internationally by air into and out of Oz has expanded dramatically in the past decade, so it would be surprising if that was not true for most airlines. There have been brand names that have disappeared into and out of Oz: Lauda Air was one; Australian Airlines (see above) was another.

But this extract from the BITRE's 2015 annual international air passengers report sums it up as to how QFi has essentially been a failure. Losing a net 5.3 percentage points on overall market share in a decade shows how the QF group has underperformed the market. If it wasn't for larger companies, government departments and authorities who seem to have some bias towards using QF, QF's market share would be even smaller.

What would QF's market share of all privately funded - by that I mean out of the traveller's own pocket - be? Surely it would be lower than the claimed percentage market share below.

VA is also a failure internationally, but that is off a much smaller base.

Extract from BITRE 'annual aviation activity (international) for 2015':

Compared to 2005, Qantas Airways’ share has decreased by 12.1 percentage points,
Emirates’ share has increased by 3.6 percentage points, Jetstar’s share has increased
by 9.0 percentage points (commenced international operations in December 2005),
Singapore Airlines’ share has decreased by 2.0 percentage points and Virgin Australia’s
share has increased by 5.3 percentage points. The decrease in share for the Qantas
group (Qantas Airways, Jetstar and Jetstar Asia in 2015 compared to Qantas, Australian
Airlines and Jetstar in 2005) was 5.3 percentage points.

The aviation market is changing quickly and the players who do well need to be proactive rather than reactive. The 2015 info you quote is no longer relevant unfortunately. There is later info out there. Like it or otherwise Qantas is now doing better than they were.

Why is Airbus now looking at changing the stairs in new A380s and introducing a retrofit for older aircraft? In an attempt to get some extra life out of the aircraft which is quickly being relegated to dinosaur status.

Why is Qantas launching this PER-LHR B787 flight? Because they see that the market is there and that they will get better value out of their assets with this in their schedule than they do currently. I can guarantee to you that the cost per passenger seat mile of a B787 is considerably lower than the A380.

 

[Comoman]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Pricing disparity (although nothing new) now getting main stream media coverage:

Qantas non-stop flights Perth to London: Why is WA paying more? | Perth Now

 

[Franky]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

There was a model previously... daily flights from all capital cities to SIN which combined into the principal flight onward to london. QF have gone back to the daily flights from most capitals to SIN, but no onward connection.

From memory, there were 2 or 3 further flights to LHR, usually less than an hour apart. Way back when..

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

From memory, there were 2 or 3 further flights to LHR, usually less than an hour apart. Way back when..

Back then there was 2 LHR flights via SIN, one from BKK and one HKG. BA took over the BKK and HKG ones back in about 2010 I think

 

[straitman]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

My statement was about carriers and not seats on aircraft as per the post I replied to. QF was not restricted in increasing its seats ex Aus: they just didn't judge the market correctly to make it viable.

Correct but that's something they have become much better at it recently.

 

[straitman]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

but no longer LH, KLM, Lauda, Virgin (most)BA, Al italia, JAT, Olympic and all the other European carriers that no longer fly here

Yes but we have far more flights in and out. You haven't factored that into your equation. Look st how many EK run alone. Plus capacity. We have far more now than 30 years ago.

katiebell,

The facts (ignore the emotion) is that there are many more seats on many more carriers than there were some years ago. Many airlines have come and gone but that is nor relevant to the discussion.

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Others will eventually enter the market with their 787. Until them QF will have first mover advantage. It's maintained that for DFW service.

Was not long ago that JB was thought to be better (in hindsight) than AJ for the airline. How things have changed It's a very dynamic space.

I wonder at what fuel price would QF9 be non profitable?

 

[straitman]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

As usual QF enhancements are about enhancing the facade but cutting /reducing the underlying service. Seat reduction, prices going up, 2 stop into EU for QF pax from MEL, narrower seats in Y

Your opinion but let's wait and see the reality. Ultimately market forces will drive the seat price.

PER passengers get a proper enhancement only if going to LHR, worse if going EU

That's what this is about isn't it. Through passengers versus people stopping off. i.e. the big picture.

I agree with JohnK that it's a gimmick. Won't take long to be replicated and highly dependant on low fuel prices.

What have the fuel prices got to do with it? It is overall efficiency (pax seat miles cost) As fuel prices go up the B787 will be better off than the A380.

 

[Pleb Status]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

I can guarantee to you that the cost per passenger seat mile of a B787 is considerably lower than the A380.

Can you? Have you any verifiable data to backup that statement?

If both aircraft have a similar configuration (the QF A380 would need to lose F and would need a similar J/W/Y mix to the 789) and all seats are filled with pax (100% load factor), the larger aircraft will generally cost less per pax per mile to operate over mid to long range sectors.

On some specific missions, I have read that the A339 (a warmed over A333) will be more economical to operate than the 789.

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Can you? Have you any verifiable data to backup that statement?

If both aircraft have a similar configuration (the QF A380 would need to lose F and would need a similar J/W/Y mix to the 789) and all seats are filled with pax, the larger aircraft will generally cost less per pax per mile to operate over longer sectors.

On some specific missions, I have read that the A339 (a warmed over A333) will be more economical to operate than the 789.

The numbers are already there that the 787 is more efficient per seat than the A380. Let's not forget the extra engines the A380 has too..

 

[mannej]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Pricing disparity (although nothing new) now getting main stream media coverage:

Qantas non-stop flights Perth to London: Why is WA paying more? | Perth Now

Huffing and puffing from the new government - something they seem good at.

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

Your opinion but let's wait and see the reality. Ultimately market forces will drive the seat price.

That's what this is about isn't it. Through passengers versus people stopping off. i.e. the big picture.

What have the fuel prices got to do with it? It is overall efficiency (pax seat miles cost) As fuel prices go up the B787 will be better off than the A380.

yes as I said lots of speculation

QF is marketing it all the positives but being completely silent about negatives of which there are several.

Similarly the nonstop Singair to EWR was ultimately killed off by (apparently) high fuel prices and the company returned to a 2 sector offering. At some price of Jetfuel the penalty (fuel, cargo and passenger loadings etc etc)of a non stop over a 1 stop might be enough to overtake the cost saving of a non stop. I wonder what that is if indeed there can be such a metric?

 

[nlagalle]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

My statement was about carriers and not seats on aircraft as per the post I replied to. QF was not restricted in increasing its seats ex Aus: they just didn't judge the market correctly to make it viable.

Seats has everything to do with it as it was about capacity too.

Fact is the competition is far greater now than 30 years ago. Qantas was always going to lose market share given carriers with deeper pockets. It's also a totally different market today than back then too.

 

[Pleb Status]

Re: Melbourne the latest City to get shafted by Qantas

The numbers are already there that the 787 is more efficient per seat than the A380. Let's not forget the extra engines the A380 has too..

Could you please provide a link to these 'numbers'?