QF announce non-stop Perth-London B787 Services

[Himeno]

For me in Canberra, it doesn't work out, except that it now makes a DONE3 possible.

No it doesn't.
Ex CBR DONE3s are possible now, provided you don't go to Asia, Europe or North America, using the new JJ JNB-GRU flight.
Any non stop flight between SWP and Europe/Middle East counts as going through Asia for xONEx's. There are already flights that do this (QF to DXB, QR to DOH).

FWIW, the JAL website says the range of their 789 is 14,800km

Unless they have changed their website in the last 2 days, it says 14400.

A better comparison to gauge the capability of the 789 is SFO-SIN (13,593km GC) on UA's 252 seat 789.

Not really. The GC of SFO-SIN is still less then the Boeing quoted range for a base 2 class 290 seat 787-9.

 

[BacchusMarsh]

Unless they have changed their website in the last 2 days, it says 14400.

https://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/j/asw_common/departure/inflight/seatmap/detail.html?c=b787_9

ANA has 14,200km for the 246-seat configuration and 14,900km for 215 seats.

JAL says various things, including 14,800km as noted:

q‹ó‹@ƒRƒŒƒNƒVƒ‡ƒ“ - JAL

 

[flightobserver]

Range discussions seem based on the great circle route: will the 787 necessarily fly a great circle route? When I flew to LHR on QF1 we flew over DRW, SIN, across India into DXB. Coming back we flew over Indian Ocean, Perth and slightly south of ADL; neither paths seemed great circle. The actual distance flown PER-LHR may thus be longer than 14,499km.

You are correct that flights don't follow great circle routings. There are various factors which affect the routing such as weather, politics etc. Nonetheless, GC distance is a consistent method of measurement so it makes sense to use for comparisons.

Not really. The GC of SFO-SIN is still less then the Boeing quoted range for a base 2 class 290 seat 787-9.

Fair enough, but as a counterpoint to your previous JAL example, BA lists a range of 15,400 km for their 216 seat 789. I personally prefer to use manufacturer data provided in the ACAPS documents as airline listed ranges tends to be all over the place.

 

[OATEK]

I looked back and could not see any mention of pilot crew hours for this length of flight. How many pilots will be needed to cover 17.5 hrs of flying?

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Range discussions seem based on the great circle route: will the 787 necessarily fly a great circle route? When I flew to LHR on QF1 we flew over DRW, SIN, across India into DXB. Coming back we flew over Indian Ocean, Perth and slightly south of ADL; neither paths seemed great circle. The actual distance flown PER-LHR may thus be longer than 14,499km.

Don't ETOPS have an impact on this for a two engined aircraft?
Flights PER-DXB and PER-AUH all "fly via Sri Lanka, not straight across the Indian Ocean, and I thought this was the reason for that "deviation".

 

[TomVexille]

Don't ETOPS have an impact on this for a two engined aircraft?
Flights PER-DXB and PER-AUH all "fly via Sri Lanka, not straight across the Indian Ocean, and I thought this was the reason for that "deviation".

Here's the ETOPS 120 map for a 777 flying PER-DXB



As you can see, the great circle route is well within the 120 minute range.

PER-LHR is also inside ETOPS 120

 

[Sethor]

https://www.ana.co.jp/wws/us/j/asw_common/departure/inflight/seatmap/detail.html?c=b787_9

ANA has 14,200km for the 246-seat configuration and 14,900km for 215 seats.

JAL says various things, including 14,800km as noted:

q‹ó‹@ƒRƒŒƒNƒVƒ‡ƒ“ - JAL

I was thought ANA still had 8 abreast in the long haul 787's, That leaves JAL the only airline to have 8 abreast.

 

[Himeno]

I was thought ANA still had 8 abreast in the long haul 787's, That leaves JAL the only airline to have 8 abreast.

ANA started with 8 abreast and quickly began changing to 9 when they realized that no other carrier was using 8.
JAL now uses 8 across as a selling point in their "New Sky" marketing.

 

[EestiTiger]

So assuming that GC Mapper route is the most direct, or efficient, won't they need a bit more range to avoid Pakistan, Iran and even Crimea? Probably not the best airspace to be flying over.

 

[TomVexille]

So assuming that GC Mapper route is the most direct, or efficient, won't they need a bit more range to avoid Pakistan, Iran and even Crimea? Probably not the best airspace to be flying over.

Certainly the most direct, but not necessarily the most efficient. That would rely on winds aloft.

 

[Himeno]

So assuming that GC Mapper route is the most direct, or efficient, won't they need a bit more range to avoid Pakistan, Iran and even Crimea? Probably not the best airspace to be flying over.

Most commercial flights between North America/Europe and the middle east currently fly over western Iran to avoid Iraq.

 

[Infrequent]

So assuming that GC Mapper route is the most direct, or efficient, won't they need a bit more range to avoid Pakistan, Iran and even Crimea? Probably not the best airspace to be flying over.

Iran gets a huge amount of traffic these days - major corridor to avoid Iraq & Afghanistan.

The GC routes people quote from MEL SYD BNE & DRW go across China ... seems good in theory, but then you factor in Chinese airspace control!

 

[dajop]

PER-LHR is also inside ETOPS 120

View attachment 85733

Interestingly the GC path seems to follow very closely to the route many carriers take to get from SE Asia to Europe, with the slight deviation over the southern part of the Black Sea (to avoid Crimea) before or after passing through Azerbaijan/Georgia.

Iran gets a huge amount of traffic these days - major corridor to avoid Iraq & Afghanistan.

Many carriers, including BA, LH, SQ, LX etc fly across Afghanistan when travelling from SE Asia to Europe. India->Pakistan->Afghanistan->Iran or Turkmenistan. MH seems to be the main exception, they almost always avoid Pakistan/Afghanistan, instead India ->Arabian Sea->Iran.

 

[JohnK]

Oh dear. What a waste for the new aircraft.

And I get a funny feeling any special airfares to Europe will route you via PER.

Personally the thought of more than 17.5 hours on a 787 in Y petrifies me....

That petrifies me in any cabin. I did SYD-LAX in premium economy seating. It's not fun.

 

[Quickstatus]

MH seems to be the main exception, they almost always avoid Pakistan/Afghanistan, instead India ->Arabian Sea->Iran.

And Israel though it does not make much difference to the total flight schedule

 

[Quickstatus]

That petrifies me in any cabin. I did SYD-LAX in premium economy seating. It's not fun.

What was the issue with PE SYD-LAX?.

 

[JohnPhelan]

I looked back and could not see any mention of pilot crew hours for this length of flight. How many pilots will be needed to cover 17.5 hrs of flying?

Presumably the same number as required SYD-DFW?

 

[Melburnian1]

AFF member flightobserver's projected timetablen (in the previous thread) for QF2 that shows a 1400 hours arrival in PER ex LHR, a 1530 hours departure and a 2230 hours SYD arrival is problematical.

Imagine how often the flight might terminate in PER if late and 'the delegate' failed to grant a SYD curfew dispensation.

 

[Quickstatus]

Re: Qantas: non-stop Australia (Perth)-Europe (London) Boeing 787 flights set to soar

price premium for everyone to offset the amount of seats they will have to block to make this work. The 787 simply does NOT have the range to do this route without blocking a large amount of seats.

If AJ made it 2-4-2 there would be less seat blocking.

Remember VH-OJA flew a nonstop LHR-SYD by blocking nearly ALL of the seats.

Everyone is caught up in the idea the the aircraft has some incredible magical powers!

Its just an airplane . Granted a bit more efficient, and a bit lighter, but not to the extent that the hype is making it out to be.
Hey its just a glorified B767-500

 

[leadman]

Re: Qantas: non-stop Australia (Perth)-Europe (London) Boeing 787 flights set to soar

"This is a game-changing route flown by a game-changing aircraft" Qantas CEO Alan Joyce said in a statement.

You'd think QF was the 787 launch airline the way they are carrying on - it's been flying for over 5yrs all over the world, hell even JQ fly it to Bali as the Bogan Express :shock:

Talk about spin!

There is nothing game-changing about this. It's a mess from the outset and I pity the poor PAX stuck in whY in the middle seats for 17.5hrs on a full flight - lord have mercy!

I totally agree. Listening to cough that QF has been spinning is almost nauseating. Especially when you arrive Melbourne and there are three other airlines with the 787. And coming out of BKK there is a lot more on the tarmac, but of course with the lack of focus in Asia I'm not surprised they have ignored that; I was talking with someone at the QF lounge in BKK, oh sorry I forgot, no lounge any more! looking at the Thai 787. Even Ethiopian fly them!