QF-EK broken promises

[Flying mermaid]

Whats your strategy re timing of shower - before lights out of prior to landing? I note that showers are not avail 1 hour prior to arrival.

prior to landing, otherwise doesn't feel like any point. I can't sleep for that long anyway, so always awake well before landing.

 

[JohnK]

I must be the only person who has absolutely zero interest in having a shower on a plane :shock: When necessary I shower in the lounge, pre or post flight.

Add me to the list. I don't see the obsession. Or the attraction.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

QF ditching Chauffeur Drive was a real loss I feel. they could at least have kept it for F flights to the US.

Likely justified as 'why bother with the additional expense when people will fly us anyway?'
To which they have a good point.

I must be the only person who has absolutely zero interest in having a shower on a plane :shock: When necessary I shower in the lounge, pre or post flight.

Showers were not brought in to target 'business class demographic pax', upgrades or points burners... they are there to sell the dream. Similar to how frequent flyer programs make people think they can save up points for years and use for biz class for the family on the next big trip.

 

[dajop]

Likely justified as 'why bother with the additional expense when people will fly us anyway?'
To which they have a good point.
.

With all the competition in F across the pacific nonstop to the US wouldn't people fly someone else instead? Oh hang on ........

Exactly!

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Likely justified as 'why bother with the additional expense when people will fly us anyway?'
To which they have a good point.



Showers were not brought in to target 'business class demographic pax', upgrades or points burners... they are there to sell the dream. Similar to how frequent flyer programs make people think they can save up points for years and use for biz class for the family on the next big trip.

Yes. So why is QF failing to sell the dream?
Or failing to convince us they are even capable of dreaming?

 

[pagingjoan]

Whats your strategy re timing of shower - before lights out of prior to landing? I note that showers are not avail 1 hour prior to arrival.

Last spot before landing - for me.
(Hope the rest of you take the "before lights out" approach. )

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Yes. So why is QF failing to sell the dream?
Or failing to convince us they are even capable of dreaming?

A heap of airlines are cutting back on first class entirely and moving towards more business class.

Fundamentally I believe first class should be a solid alternative to flying private, rather than a few steps above business class.
In fact there's more millionaires now than ever before in history and the world is transporting more bodies via than air than ever. People who pay first class aint doing it for the status credits or points. They are doing it because of the value it (should) bring them such as privacy, saving time and little to no stress which is likely a reflection of how their life is generally. In addition to this we look at who makes decisions around first class products and it's generally folks who have never paid for a first class ticket in their life.

The folks running the data and looking at BI are all about numbers, trends and hypothesising various scenarios. Very few BI teams (in my experience) have product people inside the department who are there to innovate/find new revenue. We look at the most successful companies in the world and all of them have a culture of try-fail-try-fail as fast as possible. Innovation has and always will be key to future profits.

I believe this is why ME3 have seen greater success with first class than any other carriers in history. They understand what's important.

 

[esseeeayeenn]

A heap of airlines are cutting back on first class entirely and moving towards more business class.

Fundamentally I believe first class should be a solid alternative to flying private, rather than a few steps above business class.
In fact there's more millionaires now than ever before in history and the world is transporting more bodies via than air than ever. People who pay first class aint doing it for the status credits or points. They are doing it because of the value it (should) bring them such as privacy, saving time and little to no stress which is likely a reflection of how their life is generally. In addition to this we look at who makes decisions around first class products and it's generally folks who have never paid for a first class ticket in their life.

The folks running the data and looking at BI are all about numbers, trends and hypothesising various scenarios. Very few BI teams (in my experience) have product people inside the department who are there to innovate/find new revenue. We look at the most successful companies in the world and all of them have a culture of try-fail-try-fail as fast as possible. Innovation has and always will be key to future profits.

I believe this is why ME3 have seen greater success with first class than any other carriers in history. They understand what's important.

You observe that the ME3 have made F work.
So why doesn't QF make F work?

 

[trippin_the_rift]

You observe that the ME3 have made F work.
So why doesn't QF make F work?

Many reasons likely play a role... culture of the company, long product lead times to roll out hard product, shareholder risk profile not encouraging of bold innovation, attitude of australians in general/tall poppy syndrome.

Plus... would you 'fix' first class if you're making record profits?

 

[juddles]

You observe that the ME3 have made F work.
So why doesn't QF make F work?

Possibly due to an underlying cultural "problem". In Australia even the rich don't really live like rich people, in comparison to in other countries/cultures. (ie lack of servants / drivers / etc etc) so maybe it is hard for Australians to comprehend, let alone implement, such a situation or feel in F?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Yes. So why is QF failing to sell the dream?
Or failing to convince us they are even capable of dreaming?

I think there are two approaches to airline dream selling. 'Soft' selling sentiment - we bring your family together (QF, BA), or 'here are our cabin crew, fly us' (SQ), or QF's 'I still call Australia home'.

Other airlines sell the dream through product and services... EK (jennifer Aniston), EY suites etc.

QF hasn't much deviated from the former. I dunno how successful their campaigns are, haven't seen the figures.

 

[Flying mermaid]

You observe that the ME3 have made F work.
So why doesn't QF make F work?

My feeling is they have very little commitment to F any longer. They hardly have any F left and I suspect keep it only because they won't be viewed as a top class airline if they don't provide it. It is a useful as a reward for FF with award tickets and upgrades. I started flying F with Qantas in 1989 and yes the hard product is way better (but that is an industry wide thing and they are certainly not leading edge), but everything else seems a peg down. Of course prices are as well. F is certainly not anywhere near as expensive as it used to be.

 

[Anna]

Anna. They clearly KWIA. . Every flight into and out of Adelaide has been upgraded. From Y to J and J to F. The shower was excellent and surprising just how refreshing it is. That was on a NZ flight but in April I'll try again on a Mel-Sin flight.

You've been lucky! That certainly wasn't my recent experience with EK ex-ADL, nor that of other ADL based AFFers I've spoken to!

OTOH, EK Y was much better than I had expected it to be. Could get out of my seat quite easily even with the person in front fully reclined, and even got some minimal personalised service. Oh, and the completely useless insincere WP greeting from the CSM who was then not seen again during the flight.

 

[dajop]

Surely the F thing is all down to economics. Whilst F fares are expensive they are also expensive for the airlines to run - take up a lot of real estate on the plane, cost a lot to service, more staff etc. I think I've read an analysis (can't remember where) that F basically is a prestige thing and doesn't make much, or any money on most routes. The ME3 with their cash and lower cost structures seem to make them work but many others seem to struggle. Even SQ has been downsizing their F cabin on some of their planes. From various trip reports a lot of carriers seems to go out with F less than half full - and looking at the space it occupies with loads like that it's difficult to see how it makes money. And the there's the competition with private/corporate jets ....

 

[Flying mermaid]

Surely the F thing is all down to economics. Whilst F fares are expensive they are also expensive for the airlines to run - take up a lot of real estate on the plane, cost a lot to service, more staff etc. I think I've read an analysis (can't remember where) that F basically is a prestige thing and doesn't make much, or any money on most routes. The ME3 with their cash and lower cost structures seem to make them work but many others seem to struggle. Even SQ has been downsizing their F cabin on some of their planes. From various trip reports a lot of carriers seems to go out with F less than half full - and looking at the space it occupies with loads like that it's difficult to see how it makes money. And the there's the competition with private/corporate jets ....

I think airlines were hit with the double whammy of reduced demand and increased supply for their F product. There used to be a huge differential between F and J. Now it really isn't that big, so I suspect a lot of people are paying J and not feeling any real need to pay for F. Airlines are reducing the size of F cabins and taking F off routes that aren't profitable. Eventually prices will go up to where they probably should be. Not that I am desperate to pay more, but if it bought me a better product then I would be happy.

(we are way off topic here - sorry Katie)

 

[esseeeayeenn]

Possibly due to an underlying cultural "problem". In Australia even the rich don't really live like rich people, in comparison to in other countries/cultures. (ie lack of servants / drivers / etc etc) so maybe it is hard for Australians to comprehend, let alone implement, such a situation or feel in F?

I think that's valid.

My best friend is a flight attendant and recently transferred from an ME3 airline to an Australian airline.
He observed that in the ME the culture is all focused on the passenger. They come first.
Whereas in AU it's almost as if the crew come first and then they'll do what they can for the passenger.

 

[juddles]

I think that's valid.

My best friend is a flight attendant and recently transferred from an ME3 airline to an Australian airline.
He observed that in the ME the culture is all focused on the passenger. They come first.
Whereas in AU it's almost as if the crew come first and then they'll do what they can for the passenger.

I think that is very very true. I understand the Aussie side to that (flight safety, etc), but if you are paying F you want to not even have to think about feeling the "priority". It should not even be a doubt.

 

[katiebell]

I think that is very very true. I understand the Aussie side to that (flight safety, etc), but if you are paying F you want to not even have to think about feeling the "priority". It should not even be a doubt.

My experience of QF (& BA) F is absolute pampering and nothing is too much trouble. Crew could not be better and all the time I know that the culture of the airlines prioritises safety. I would feel let down by QF if I were flying from ADL, BNE or PER and could not fly QF F for the longer sector (as was the case pre EK & DXB).
BTW I was told that CASA does not permit some suite designs on locally registered aircraft (i.e. doors not allowed). I was also told, by a reliable source, that the doors are there to comply with muslim ideas about women not sleeping in the same room as men who are not their husbands (so not there to attract westerners as a primary reason)

Clearly some like to fly EK and do not care about the lack of a safety culture and are, therefore, happy with the EK tie up. Others find that we do not have the best of the options available. And some things are clearly the worse of hte options e.g. massive decrease in baggage allowance, loss of PE cabin regardles of whether they matter to you personally. So whether you think that the EK deal works for you or not there are clearly things that are not as promised, it just may be that you do not value them as much as some of us. My other unhappiness about the EK deal is the abysmal security sceeening in DXB: that is definitely a loss when compared with SIN or, in the really good days, HKG. So I take my business elsewhere whenever I can.

 

[Pushka]

Lack of safety culture? Where did that come from? Long bow drawn there. If it is a Muslim idea to have doors in F, and I like, then how do you rationalise lack of doors in J and Y?

Was continuance of PE promised? I usually find it too expensive for the real lack of value esp with the change to the 380's.

I've found security screening in Dubai to be as extensive as anywhere else. But this is a new discussion point you've just raised.

 

[greenfish]

My experience of QF (& BA)
I was also told, by a reliable source, that the doors are there to comply with muslim ideas about women not sleeping in the same room as men who are not their husbands (so not there to attract westerners as a primary reason)

That sounds very unlikely. SQ pioneered suites with doors - and if you ever try one, you'll understand why a suite is now the benchmark for F. Nothing else compares.

EK and EY have simply responded to Singapore with their versions of suites (not to mention residences).

EK raised the bar higher with showers and EY responded.