QF1 from SIN diversion to Baku, Azerbaijan (GYD)

[RooFlyer]

Jump in the ops centre and I can assure you it’s a 10 in terms of trying to facilitate the whole thing. It’s not easy when you are relying on airport management etc to deal with it first up and start the dialogue with the company. The passengers will probably be in the airport until sunset before they can reach a hotel. Sorting out Visa’s will be a nightmare, as seen in that Singapore example.

Which is why I've argued in the past that an airline like Qantas should have an Agent on retainer in airports scattered along their flight paths who would be activated in cases just like this.

By 'Agent' I mean a contract with a local company (or, individual) who would be stood up as soon as the destination was known. Agent would be retained to know all about the local rules, hotels, busses, immigration etc and make calls, meet the plane etc as required, or possible. We've heard any number of times of passengers being de-planed and herded into a holding area with no news, no-one representing the airline etc.

How much the Agent could do would depend on circumstances but at least there would be a 'representative' for both passengers and the Ops Centre to hear from.

The media will give them a belting no doubt, however what is the easy way out of these things?

Nothing easy. But could be made easier I think. But that would cost money of course, and we know how well that goes down!

 

[Melburnian1]

'The Aviation Herald' will have rules about what it does, and does not, publish, but so far I can't see mention of this QFi diversion on the website.

 

[moa999]

If rescheduled to dep at 22:30 Saturday, given that I post this at 14:50 Friday, Baku time, one perhaps would think by then they wouldn't be out of hours ...

Would appear that's what they are attempting.
Minimise the disruption.
Gives the passengers a day and a half in Baku.

Only other alternative would have been to land a fresh crew Sat morning from London, and at best you might have saved 7-8hrs but disrupted even more people at the London end.

 

[Mattg]

If there was a safety issue then I have no issue with airlines diverting.

Let's hope Qantas handles this better though than this recent LH diversion!

Lufthansa A350 Diverts To Angola, Strands Passengers

A Lufthansa Airbus A350 diverted to Luanda, Angola, due to an engine problem. Amazingly Lufthansa isn't sending a rescue plane for travelers.

onemileatatime.com

 

[milehighclub]

Only other alternative would have been to land a fresh crew Sat morning from London, and at best you might have saved 7-8hrs but disrupted even more people at the London end.

Maybe not even that. Hard to say exactly without precise times, but any crew flown in, from anywhere, would probably also need rest in Baku before operating the flight. Just there minimum rest would be lower than the crew there now.

 

[exLXCXFF]

'The Aviation Herald' will have rules about what it does, and does not, publish, but so far I can't see mention of this QFi diversion on the website.

Simon is certainly aware of it - I dropped him a note about 2 mins after QF1 landed in Baku. Probably still working through it and potentially waiting for an official ATSB note.

There now: The Aviation Herald

 

[Quickstatus]

Qantas should have an Agent on retainer in airports scattered along their flight paths

There is a lot of alternate airports along each route. Less for 380 but more for a 787.
The local agent idea is an interesting one. Reminds me of QF8 in June 2022

The June 2022 debacle at DFW with the 787 even with local contracted agents suggests that even with local agents it really comes down to what resources Head Office is prepared to throw at the problem.

Airlines such as QF (and other organisations) are increasingly not giving their staff the tools/resources to sort out issues themselves at the coalface. So many times staff are unable to help even if they are willing to and know what to do. They are afraid that their staff will overspend on solutions and so limit what they can do at the coalface. But it is during these exceptional circumstances that an organisations demonstrate their true value and their culture to their customers

Passengers don’t remember the routine service, but they do remember the exceptional. Being great at the routine does not make an organisation exceptional. The glib apologies after the QF8 debacle in June 2022 at one of its most important destinations in one of the biggest airports in the world where it’s close partner AA has its main hub, in one of the biggest cities in the US, really only highlight that QF is only prepared for the routine and not the exceptional.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

UK261 only applies to Qantas PAX for flights departing the UK.

[EDIT]Apologies if you were specifically referring to QF2.

Correct, I was referring to QF2.

I thought this too, and was about to post the same, but to be fair UK261 was discussed in context of the retimed QF2, not QF1. Delays to QF2 ex-LHR do fall in the sphere of UK 261.

In any event, I don't I'd be "mighty happy" to receive compensation for arriving at 7pm on Dec 25 instead of 7am ...

Perhaps I'm just a cheapskate when it comes to these things. I know everyone hates delays or heaven forbid cancellations, I always take it as an opportunity to get something out of the "bargain".

QR and S7 both have regular flights into GYD

Didn't realize QR flies to GYD although I wonder what sort of facilities they have in place there. S7 isn't a OneWorld member though!

Australians can get an e-visa in advance or apply at the airport (I did the lattter)

If there was an issue for people entering the country, it's their COVID restrictions, about which they are pretty conservative.

Interesting! In any event, I'd be shocked if a country an airliner is flying over denies landing permission in an emergency. Usually you land first, ask questions later!

Definitely wouldn't complain about the compensation or the delay. knowing the reason, but also not going celebrate or be "mighty happy" for the compensation. I get the sense that some folk if given the choice between a 12+ hr delay and compensation would take the compensation, but particularly on Dec 25, if given the choice between the compensation and re-routing on a different carrier (unlikely I know at this time of year) to arrive at a similar time, I'd probably take the latter, and I suspect many others would too.

Now obviously this flight and schedule is gonna run into problems given the circumstance, and obviously safety is the number one job of any airline. Whether QF is at fault for the underlying issue that caused the diversion is up for investigators. I'm guessing the Azerbaijani authorities would be the ones investigating? Would France's BEA be involved since it's an Airbus? What about Australia's NTSB? No doubt that particular airframe will be out of service for sometime, notwithstanding the QF bird coming to rescue those passengers.

What I will say though is UK261 does act as a wonderful release valve for fuming customers. It gives them rights for rebooking and accommodation, and provides that cash compensation which frankly takes the temperature down from otherwise fuming customers who discover their flight is delayed by half a day on one of the world's longest flights!

Here's what the IOC looked like when we visited a few years ago.
View attachment 312443

Unsure who laid out the clocks but they don't seem to be in a logical order hopping around the globe like a drunk Kangaroo! If anything it should be something like Sydney, Los Angeles, UTC, London, Dubai. And for those wondering London and UTC aren't the same thing. One is a geographic location that is defined by a time zone the other is a time system for which the rest of the world's time is relative to.

-RooFlyer88

 

[AIRwin]

S7 isn't a OneWorld member though!

oneworld and S7 Airlines have agreed to a suspension of S7 Airlines' membership in the alliance effective 19 April 2022, until further notice.

 

[AIRwin]

What about Australia's NTSB?

CASA

 

[CaptJCool]

Baku has a F1 Grand Prix street circuit. Hopefully the PAX get a chance to scout out the neighbourhood.
As it would seem The logistics of getting out of there are surmountable but not quickly. These are the vagaries of travel which are inevitable in worldwide ops. Had it been more sinister, then alternative transport might have been necessary so that’s no quick fix flying in an aircraft that’s at least 15-20 flying hours alone let alone a refreshed crew ready to go.
would appear there’s a range of alternate ways to London including AZ direct on the evening of 24th Dec - baggage to arrive after Christmas is over...

 

[Quickstatus]

It’s interesting the route taken through Turkmenistan rather than the usual more southerly one via the UAE/Iraq.

Any reason why it is avoiding Iranian airspace?

 

[og]

Hope pax are able to wander in Baku. The waterfront is a nice stroll especially when you can see evidence of oil spills (everywhere). Oil wells nearby and a constant smell of oil in the air. serious amounts of money in the economy (or individuals). It’s an oil country. It was sought after in WW2 by various people (Hitler) because of it’s oil. It’d be a good bet that its northern neighbour is watching closely (because of oil).

 

[jb747]

We were looking at the map- I assume Tbilisi is too short a runway (3000m), Istanbul seems more logical although slightly further away and of course you don't f*ck around with smoke

I wasn't actually serious about Tbilisi, though if you had a smoke warning and any form of secondary confirmation it would be more than adequate. Not sure if the FMC data load and charts would include it though...I don't recall ever looking. Trabzon was in front of them, and is perfecty usable. Weather was okay, but I have no idea of its notam status.

Yeah, generally when there is smoke there is usually something FAR worse which that tends to take aircraft down. I'm reminded of SwissAir 111 which had an onboard fire and was mucking about instead of taking a direct approach to the nearest airport. And since the maximum landing weight is always greater than or at least equal to the maximum takeoff weight (particularly in emergencies like this) things like fuel dumps don't matter either!

Maximum landing weight is NEVER greater than or equal to the maximum take off weight. You might want to rethink what you wrote there. There was 20 minutes or so to dump fuel, though probably not a great deal left in dumpable tanks at that point in the flight. You can land at up to max take off weight, as long as you do it right.

How does "transiting" work for these passengers? I'm guessing countries in general don't care about things like citizenship or visas when an emergency like this is declared?

Emergency is over once on the ground. They'll care, alright. And apply some nonsense rules...

Australians can get an e-visa in advance or apply at the airport (I did the lattter)

If there was an issue for people entering the country, it's their COVID restrictions, about which they are pretty conservative.

You can get an e-visa with a couple of days advance notice. NOT on the spot. Visas and entry most certainly have the potential to be a PITA. They have previous form with regard to this. Holding people on aircraft, or within terminal holding areas, for days, is not unknown.

 

[jb747]

It’s interesting the route taken through Turkmenistan rather than the usual more southerly one via the UAE/Iraq.

Any reason why it is avoiding Iranian airspace?

The routes varied day by day, depending upon the weather and other traffic. Even though overall air traffic is down, there are nowhere near as many available routes now, so that tends to concentrate the aircraft on the few that are available.

 

[henrus]

How long does everyone think it’ll take for the QF1/2 schedule to get back to normal.

Given the time of year I suspect it might be at least a couple of weeks unless they cancel some flights (hard to do given how busy everything is).

 

[RSD]

Given the change of government happening in Israel at the moment and their feelings towards Iran and the likelihood of them launching an air attack on Iran's nuclear facilities in the very near future then avoiding Iranian air space is probably a very sensible thing to be doing for the foreseeable future to avoid a repeat of MH17 (saying this as I sit just across the ditch from Iran in the EK lounge in Dubai!)

 

[jb747]

We were looking at the map- I assume Tbilisi is too short a runway (3000m), Istanbul seems more logical although slightly further away and of course you don't f*ck around with smoke

3,000 metres is quite adequate. The aircraft would have been about 40 tonnes heavier than the planned London landing weight, so, probably around 20 tonnes over max landing weight. And I have to say now (again) that max landing weight is NOT the maximum weight at which you can land. It is simply the maximum weight at which you can land with a defined sink rate (i.e. thumping it into the ground). The weight that is relevant here is the performance limited weight. What can you land with, and then stop. And even that is somewhat flexible.

But perhaps Yerevan (EVN) would have been more suitable. Has 3850x56m runway and "is capable of accepting Airbus 380...".

Looks like it was nearer to EVN, but maybe a political thing? Russia vs Islamic dictator? Or don't these kind of things count?

Yerevan is also about 3,000' AMSL, and is surrounded by very high terrain. There are better choices.

Which is why I've argued in the past that an airline like Qantas should have an Agent on retainer in airports scattered along their flight paths who would be activated in cases just like this.

Now why didn't they think of that....

If there was a safety issue then I have no issue with airlines diverting.

If there was a safety issue?

Just there minimum rest would be lower than the crew there now.

No it wouldn't. The crew who are there would almost certainly be available before any other crew would arrive.

CASA

ATSB. It's unlikely to be investigated at all.

 

[aus_flyer]

Does anyone know what the QF A380 patterns are? Looks like they're all doing a combo of LHR and LAX - rather than having a few dedicated to LHR and a few doing LAX.

So which upcoming flights will be disrupted?

Also, what would have happened if this was a flight to LAX? Not many places to land an A380 quickly!

 

[jb747]

Given the change of government happening in Israel at the moment and their feelings towards Iran and the likelihood of them launching an air attack on Iran's nuclear facilities in the very near future then avoiding Iranian air space is probably a very sensible thing to be doing for the foreseeable future to avoid a repeat of MH17 (saying this as I sit just across the ditch from Iran in the EK lounge in Dubai!)

Ukraine 752 is probably even more relevant.