QF32 388 - emergency landing in SIN after Engine failure

[ethernet]

Re: QF 32 A380 out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

Try 8 if you included the damaged one on QF32 and LHs one this morning. As for uncontained IFSD for RR, certainly a lot more recent than 1994, if we overlook the recent SFO incident in Sept, there have been ongoing ADs trying to address the issue:

Rules: Rolls-Royce plc RB211 Series Turbofan Engines, » Federal Register [FR Doc E8-22521] [14 CFR Part 39]

govpulse | Airworthiness Directives; Rolls-Royce plc RB211 Series Turbofan Engines

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2000-03-16/pdf/00-6388.pdf

The more recent one this year was a result of a 2004 incident:

[FONT=&quot]Airworthiness directives, Rolls–Royce plc RB211–Trent 800 series turbofan engines: Final rule, published March 29, 2010, effective May 3, 2010[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][TEXT] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PURPOSE: This airworthiness directive (AD) requires actions intended to correct the unsafe condition described in the summary, below.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]SUMMARY: The Federal Aviation Administration adopts a new AD for Rolls–Royce plc RB211–Trent 800 series turbofan engines. This AD results from mandatory continuing airworthiness information (MCAI) issued by an aviation authority of another country to identify and correct an unsafe condition on an aviation product. The MCAI describes the unsafe condition as:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] During 2004, an incident was reported involving uncontained multiple intermediate-pressure (IP) turbine blade release on a Trent 700 engine. The blade release was the result of an overspeed of the IP turbine rotor that was initiated by an internal fire in the high-pressure/intermediate-pressure (HP/IP) bearing chamber. Post-incident analysis and investigation has established that blockage of the HP/IP turbine bearing oil vent tube due to carbon deposits was a significant factor in the failure sequence. The Trent 800 has a similar type design standard to that of the Trent 700 and has also been found in service to be susceptible to carbon deposits in the oil vent tube.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This AD is issued to prevent internal oil fires due to coking and carbon buildup in the HP/IP turbine bearing oil vent tube that could cause uncontained engine failure and damage to the airplane.[/FONT]

Good information there Markis10. That should signal firm shorting or RR before Fridays 'announcement' is a wet blanket job. The word on the street was oil hose cracking, so if they change the story to blocked vents on some models - we will think all models - SELL SELL SELL.

I'll add a theory. The extra resonance causes coke/carbon deposits to break free and reclump, and eventually a cluster of clumps causes a big problem. Just like a plaque lined artery. Now the kicker is the deposits might be shaken off the end of the vent , so an engineer thinks it looks clean. Explains now you have it , now you don't, oil pressure variations, yet still not find anything during pressure testing.

A solution might be having some appendixes onto the vent tube, so clumps and deposits fall into it. Or a stent with some wires so any clumps getting stuck register. And some reserve, where a thin membrane can burst causing a mini bypass.

Forensically all they gotta do is catscan /MRI whatever, the vent pipe (they have 7 + now) to see where buildups are/ like it, then do something. That something will take time to test. That to me smells like shorting is the way to go.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

From Flight Global:

SIA's three A380s to return to service in 48h

Once again, SIA appear to be doing things a lot faster. I dislike the lack of caution.

Keep sending him up!

Reminds me of putting a Wiggles bandaid on the skinned knee of a child if they fall over. They stop crying straight away but doesn't cure the problem, just masks it.

Can just see the No News media spin now along the lines of how efficient SQ are for fixing the problem. The problem in their eyes of course nothing more than a simple engine change here 'n' there & bob's your uncle.

The inference of course will be that QF taking ages etc etc.

An interesting experiment would be to ask everyone who loves flying SQ why they love it. You'll probably hear in-flight service, those Singapore girls. I bet you no-one says "because of their safety record".

 

[medhead]

Re: QF 32 A380 out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

Good information there Markis10. That should signal firm shorting or RR before Fridays 'announcement' is a wet blanket job. The word on the street was oil hose cracking, so if they change the story to blocked vents on some models - we will think all models - SELL SELL SELL.

I'll add a theory. The extra resonance causes coke/carbon deposits to break free and reclump, and eventually a cluster of clumps causes a big problem. Just like a plaque lined artery. Now the kicker is the deposits might be shaken off the end of the vent , so an engineer thinks it looks clean. Explains now you have it , now you don't, oil pressure variations, yet still not find anything during pressure testing.

A solution might be having some appendixes onto the vent tube, so clumps and deposits fall into it. Or a stent with some wires so any clumps getting stuck register. And some reserve, where a thin membrane can burst causing a mini bypass.

Forensically all they gotta do is catscan /MRI whatever, the vent pipe (they have 7 + now) to see where buildups are/ like it, then do something. That something will take time to test. That to me smells like shorting is the way to go.

Interesting to take a heart/artery medical type approach to the problem of a blocked vent. It seems to me that one key difference is that in a medical situation there is no real alternative to a stent or a bypas. In an engine a far simpler intervention would be to remove and replace the vent itself. I also think there would be a significant amount of engineering work to do to install a bypass tube with an opening that break under a certain pressure, when the main tube is blocked.

In terms of diagnosing the carbon build up, I'm not sure of the appropriate diagnostic methods, but it isn't as simple as a CT/MRI. You can't MRI magnetic things like an engine. CT of a metal tube will just show you the outside of a metal tube, as you will get greater attenuation from the metal tube that from any carbon deposits inside the tube.

Perhaps, if it isn't too OT, someone might share the types of techniques that are available to test of carbon build up in an engine?

I'm also struck by your calls to short RR shares. Even if I could do sophisicated investment things like shorting in the UK market. I'm more interested in this matter from an engineering/technical solution POV, rather than as an opportunity to make money. That RR doesn't seem to be doing something to address share price issues is very positive to me because it tells me that they are interested in their main business of building engines and not in making their business look good.

 

[oz_mark]

Re: QF 32 A380 out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

I'm also struck by your calls to short RR shares. Even if I could do sophisicated investment things like shorting in the UK market. I'm more interested in this matter from an engineering/technical solution POV, rather than as an opportunity to make money. That RR doesn't seem to be doing something to address share price issues is very positive to me because it tells me that they are interested in their main business of building engines and not in making their business look good.

Indeed, RR act like the old school engineering firms of old. Let the engineering speak for itself.

 

[Matt P]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

how many a380s are supposed to be in LA? I could have sworn i heard 1, but saw 2 on the tarmac today. I think QF are due no7 soon, could that be it?

 

[markis10]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

how many a380s are supposed to be in LA? I could have sworn i heard 1, but saw 2 on the tarmac today. I think QF are due no7 soon, could that be it?

There are three in LA, one in SIN, 1 in Frankfurt and 1 in SYD.

 

[NM]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

There are three in LA, one in SIN, 1 in Frankfurt and 1 in SYD.

Plus one more about to be delivered!

 

[sr81]

The Australian reporting that RR have a fix and that engines are being pulled from production to go to QF.

Rolls-Royce engine fix to clear way for A380s' return | The Australian

Rolls-Royce will will introduce a software fix that will stop the engine from getting near the point where it disintegrates, as well as hardware modification related to bearings.
The changes were revealed today by Airbus, which also said it would pull already modified engines from its production line to help Qantas get its aircraft back in the air.

 

[NM]

The Australian reporting that RR have a fix and that engines are being pulled from production to go to QF.

Rolls-Royce engine fix to clear way for A380s' return | The Australian

The changes were revealed today by Airbus, which also said it would pull already modified engines from its production line to help Qantas get its aircraft back in the air.

"already modified engines" implies they knew of the problem previously. Would also be interesting to know just what this "software fix" is supposed to do in order to stop an engine blowing itself apart.

 

[samh004]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

Plus one more about to be delivered!

With the directive not to fly if oil is found, and Qantas’ own decisions, would the 7th A380 be parked up wherever it is now then? So wont be delivered.

"already modified engines" implies they knew of the problem previously. Would also be interesting to know just what this "software fix" is supposed to do in order to stop an engine blowing itself apart.

I have to say a software fix doesn’t reassure me of much, especially when coupled with the words "the point where it disintegrates".

 

[markis10]

"already modified engines" implies they knew of the problem previously. Would also be interesting to know just what this "software fix" is supposed to do in order to stop an engine blowing itself apart.

I agree with your assessment, it makes the head in the sand approach by other airlines look very silly!

 

[oz_mark]

"already modified engines" implies they knew of the problem previously. Would also be interesting to know just what this "software fix" is supposed to do in order to stop an engine blowing itself apart.

There is an official statement due from Rolls later today which may give some indication. Presumably the software will address some sort of controller issue to shut it down before it sends bits off in all directions.

 

[NM]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

With the directive not to fly if oil is found, and Qantas’ own decisions, would the 7th A380 be parked up wherever it is now then? So wont be delivered.

I would expect QF will not accept delivery of any new A380 aircraft without some sort of commitment from Airbus/RR, the details of which I expect will remain commercially confident.

I have to say a software fix doesn’t reassure me of much, especially when coupled with the words "the point where it disintegrates".

That also implies they know something about the failure conditions that they can identify the lead-up circumstances and take action via software to avoid ... hmmm interesting.

 

[oz_mark]

Re: QF A388's out of action - who is inconvenienced? [Merged Thread]

That also implies they know something about the failure conditions that they can identify the lead-up circumstances and take action via software to avoid ... hmmm interesting.

As I understand it, the current engines send lots of information about their performance out, so I can only guess that there was something in the data feed of the exploding that would have given it away.

 

[Danger]

If it's 'only' software, wouldn't that suggest a relatively quick fix? Surely it's got to take less time than replacing entire engines. I'm still hoping my QF 11 on 25/11 will rever to an A380.

 

[markis10]

If it's 'only' software, wouldn't that suggest a relatively quick fix? Surely it's got to take less time than replacing entire engines. I'm still hoping my QF 11 on 25/11 will rever to an A380.

I think the software is the fall back/guard position, not the cause/resolution, something of a moveable red line, and the fix is firmware plus physical changes.

 

[samh004]

If it's 'only' software, wouldn't that suggest a relatively quick fix? Surely it's got to take less time than replacing entire engines. I'm still hoping my QF 11 on 25/11 will rever to an A380.

It’s not just software though: "as well as hardware modification related to bearings".

 

[MatF]

I'm still crossing my fingers for QF31, 7/12 SIN-LHR.

We're flying QF9 MEL-SIN (744) and changing to QF31 SIN-LHR (A380) rather than QF9 the whole way, especially to go on the A380, so it'll be a bit of a downer if we miss out.

Couldn't get a classic award seat on QF31 all the way, and couldn't hold off for a QF9 A380 (wives ... they just don't understand these things )

 

[NM]

If it's 'only' software, wouldn't that suggest a relatively quick fix? Surely it's got to take less time than replacing entire engines. I'm still hoping my QF 11 on 25/11 will rever to an A380.

Not "only" software. The report also mentions bearings.

 

[MatF]

More developments ...

JET engine maker Rolls-Royce made vital design changes to its A380 engine well before an old one exploded, severely damaging a Qantas super jumbo last week.

Airbus spokesman John Leahy said today that newer versions of Rolls Trent 900 engine were not plagued with the same problem where excess oil can start turbine fires and cause the engine to break up and explode.

That problem led to the Qantas mid-air scare last week.

But Mr Leahy could not say when the design changes were made.

...

David Epstein, head of corporate and government relations for Qantas, told heraldsun.com.au that the airline was regularly advised by Rolls-Royce of engine upgrades, but he could not remember the company ordering a recall of any of the Trent 900 engines fitted to Qantas jets.

Rolls-Royce engines were modified well before Qantas mid-air scare | Herald Sun