QP members diverted from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Complete - "Next Year"

[Pleb Status]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

If you are rejected from the lounge 20 times, then you'll get 20 times the apology as a QP who is rejected from the lounge once (and you'll no doubt be reviewing the decision of getting P1). Of course, please name a situation where a P1 customer has be rejected from an otherwise open QF lounge.

Some of those posting in this thread have stated clearly that they would operate a 'first come, first served' policy for governing access to the TBIT lounge. If this policy was enacted, some WP and P1 would not be admitted to the lounge if overcrowding is a problem.

I am interested about how those championing this policy would compensate WP and P1 customers and if it would differ from that provided to QC members. I highlight the potential revenue difference to QF between a P1 customer and a QC customer as background information. If you lose a single P1 customer, you may need to gain 20 QC customers to book the same amount of revenue.

 

[JohnK]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

"First they came for the QP members, and I did not speak out -
Because I was not a QP member."*

To be fair it started a long time and with each eroding benefit there are people it does not affect and therefore not care.

 

[harvyk]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Some of those posting in this thread have stated clearly that they would operate a 'first come, first served' policy for governing access to the TBIT lounge. If this policy was enacted, some WP and P1 would not be admitted to the lounge if overcrowding is a problem.

I am interested about how those championing this policy would compensate WP and P1 customers and if it would differ from that provided to QC members. I highlight the potential revenue difference to QF between a P1 customer and a QC customer as background information. If you lose a single P1 customer, you may need to gain 20 QC customers to book the same amount of revenue.

Certainly can't argue about the revenue difference between a QP and a P1.

That said as one who is championing such a policy, all I can say is I honestly don't know. FLounge invite is clearly useless, and unless something drastic happens in their levels of flying, an extra 20SC's is hardly going to make a difference.

I am however going to put in my standard wording of it's not my job to work out the kinks, and that if the current situation lasts too long they may find that they have alienated a good number of QP's who would be questioning their decision to remain QP members.

 

[medhead]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Some of those posting in this thread have stated clearly that they would operate a 'first come, first served' policy for governing access to the TBIT lounge. If this policy was enacted, some WP and P1 would not be admitted to the lounge if overcrowding is a problem.

I am interested about how those championing this policy would compensate WP and P1 customers and if it would differ from that provided to QC members. I highlight the potential revenue difference to QF between a P1 customer and a QC customer as background information. If you lose a single P1 customer, you may need to gain 20 QC customers to book the same amount of revenue.

The only thing that has been mentioned is restricting guest access. Entirely within the conditions and should not need to later deny a P1.

I think you're over estimating the value for a P1. It is fair to assume that status is deemed to have given enough profit to cover the cost of the Qantas club membership. So paid Qantas club is equal in those terms because they've paid the same value in cash. P1 are then give extra benefits to account for the value they provide above platinum.

 

[Pleb Status]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

The only thing that has been mentioned is restricting guest access. Entirely within the conditions and should not need to later deny a P1.

I think you're over estimating the value for a P1. It is fair to assume that status is deemed to have given enough profit to cover the cost of the Qantas club membership. So paid Qantas club is equal in those terms because they've paid the same value in cash. P1 are then give extra benefits to account for the value they provide above platinum.

Most people who are QC members should be paying the corporate rate of AUD400 pa (AUD355 pa if you go for two years).

Are you seriously suggesting that the net profit difference to QF between a QC member and a P1 member is only AUD400 pa? I would estimate, on average, the net profit difference between a QC member and a P1 member is in the order of AUD25000 pa (even taking into account the QC annual fee). I suggest the difference in profit from a single J/F flight is more than enough to cover the QC fee.

I think you are underestimating the value of WP/P1. Most of of us here (myself included) use the tricks of the system to get the required SC, but most do not. When I used to do a large amount of travel for business (pre P1 and they were paying), QF would have received close to 100k from my travels in a single calendar year. This is more than most will spend in a lifetime on QF.

 

[medhead]

QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

Most people who are QC members should be paying the corporate rate of AUD400 pa (AUD355 pa if you go for two years).

Are you seriously suggesting that the net profit difference to QF between a QC member and a P1 member is only AUD400 pa? I would estimate, on average, the net profit difference between a QC member and a P1 member is in the order of AUD25000 pa (even taking into account the QC annual fee). I suggest the difference in profit from a single J/F flight is more than enough to cover the QC fee.

I think you are underestimating the value of WP/P1. Most of of us here (myself included) use the tricks of the system to get the required SC, but most do not. When I used to do a large amount of travel for business (pre P1 and they were paying), QF would have received close to 100k from my travels in a single calendar year. This is more than most will spend in a lifetime on QF.

No, I'm suggesting that at gold level someone has given enough profit to Qantas to get given a $400 lounge membership, that includes platinum and P1. Qantas club members have paid that $400 already. At platinum level and above extra benefits are provided against the extra revenue/profit. First and business lounge access for example.

Also remember that the operating cost of providing lounge access to a paid member is a lot lower because they don't fly as much.

Without questioning how you know Qantas profit margins. I think you're vastly over estimating the profit from P1. Based on real fare information it was possible to get P1 from a total spend of about $32000. I can't see $25000 profit in there.

Even based on your $100000 I doubt there is a 25% profit margin. If there was Qantas would not have trouble making the required financial returns.

I also have a good idea of my spend over the last few years to get Platinum.

 

[JohnK]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Are you seriously suggesting that the net profit difference to QF between a QC member and a P1 member is only AUD400 pa? I would estimate, on average, the net profit difference between a QC member and a P1 member is in the order of AUD25000 pa (even taking into account the QC annual fee). I suggest the difference in profit from a single J/F flight is more than enough to cover the QC fee.

I think you are totally over estimating the spend to achieve Platinum One.

Those that combined Any Seat Awards with double SCs would know their real spend and I would bet almost anything that it wasn't anywhere near the $10,000-$20,000/year I spend to achieve Platinum.

And let's not get into profits because some of these people are actually costing Qantas money.

 

[RooFlyer]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

As a point of comparison, I just got this in an e-mail from Air Canada:

CALGARY LOUNGE UPDATE
Calgary International Airport has undertaken an expansion of its terminal facilities and the Air Canada Maple Leaf™ Lounge footprint has been temporarily reduced for the construction of a connection corridor.

Due to the reduced space availability, the following access restrictions will apply between 11:30 a.m. and 6:30 p.m.:
• Altitude Elite™ 50K members will not be able to invite any guests
• Maple Leaf Lounge one-time guest passes will not be accepted

Outside the restricted hours, the normal Lounge access policies will apply.

Please note that this is a temporary measure and that our Maple Leaf Lounge will return to full capacity in the summer of 2015.

We’re happy to inform you that we are taking this opportunity to renovate our Maple Leaf Lounge with enhanced amenities to serve you better.

We apologize for any inconvenience this temporary situation may cause.

Altitude 50K gives you Star Alliance Gold by way of explanation. There is no equivalent to purchased QP membership in the AC/Aeroplan scheme.

Furthermore:

ARRIVALS LOUNGE AT LONDON HEATHROW UPDATE
The new London Heathrow arrivals Lounge in Terminal 2 is now open. Access policies have been revised, and our Altitude Elite 50K members can invite one guest into this Lounge when arriving in London from any Air Canada international flight.

Fancy that! ... it is possible for an airline to advise its members about restrictions (and expansions )on access to lounges!

 

[Pleb Status]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Ne...

No, I'm suggesting that at gold level someone has given enough profit to Qantas to get given a $400 lounge membership, that includes platinum and P1. Qantas club members have paid that $400 already. At platinum level and above extra benefits are provided against the extra revenue/profit. First and business lounge access for example.

Also remember that the operating cost of providing lounge access to a paid member is a lot lower because they don't fly as much.

Without questioning how you know Qantas profit margins. I think you're vastly over estimating the profit from P1. Based on real fare information it was possible to get P1 from a total spend of about $32000. I can't see $25000 profit in there.

Even based on your $100000 I doubt there is a 25% profit margin. If there was Qantas would not have trouble making the required financial returns.

I also have a good idea of my spend over the last few years to get Platinum.

On corporate spend, which most P1 would travel on, I am estimating at least a 25% profit margin. It is most likely far higher. A case study to demonstrate.

I work for a large corporate. When they fly me to BNE, they book full Y and it costs them around $1700 rtn (after the 40% discount). When I fly to BNE, I book in E class and it costs me around $450 rtn. To be generous, let's say it costs QF $600 rtn to transport a Y passenger.

Profit margin on the corporate fare is ~ 183% of the fare purchased. They are losing money on my airfare.

The profit margin is even wider when you start looking at J/F fares.

 

[TomVexille]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Altitude 50K gives you Star Alliance Gold by way of explanation. There is no equivalent to purchased QP membership in the AC/Aeroplan scheme.

Actually you can buy access

Air Canada - Maple Leaf Club - Club feuille d'érable

 

[BD1959]

Re: QP Members Barred from LAX TBIT Lounge until upgrade Completed - Sometime "Next Y

Actually you can buy access

Air Canada - Maple Leaf Club - Club feuille d'érable

Huh, call that a paid membership?? ... It's got no joining fee .... only real paid memberships have joining fees !!

Regards,

BD

 

[medhead]

On corporate spend, which most P1 would travel on, I am estimating at least a 25% profit margin. It is most likely far higher. A case study to demonstrate.

I work for a large corporate. When they fly me to BNE, they book full Y and it costs them around $1700 rtn (after the 40% discount). When I fly to BNE, I book in E class and it costs me around $450 rtn. To be generous, let's say it costs QF $600 rtn to transport a Y passenger.

Profit margin on the corporate fare is ~ 183% of the fare purchased. They are losing money on my airfare.

The profit margin is even wider when you start looking at J/F fares.

You're ignoring the fact that your full Y fare has to subsidise people traveling on those fares that are less than a nominal $600 return for that flight to make a profit. The margin of your fare over cost of the service does not translate to profit. First that margin has to be attributed to other costs including the benefits that come with status, before the remainder can make it to profit. A small part per flight gets attributed to covering your $400 of Qantas club membership.

It is also worth remembering that you are but one example. On the flip side are all those P1s who spent $32000, or even less. I have trouble with the assumption that most p1s are on corporate travel.

 

[Pleb Status]

You're ignoring the fact that your full Y fare has to subsidise people traveling on those fares that are less than a nominal $600 return for that flight to make a profit. The margin of your fare over cost of the service does not translate to profit. First that margin has to be attributed to other costs including the benefits that come with status, before the remainder can make it to profit. A small part per flight gets attributed to covering your $400 of Qantas club membership.

It is also worth remembering that you are but one example. On the flip side are all those P1s who spent $32000, or even less. I have trouble with the assumption that most p1s are on corporate travel.

What we are trying to compare here is the individual value of a single P1 member versus a single QC member, not the profitability of the airline as a whole. When considered as individuals, the P1 member (after all costs are considered) contributes multitudes more profit to QF than a QC member. The same goes with WP and SG members, just not to the same extent. That is why QC members are the first to get cut from the lounge.

Although I am effectively a self funded P1, it takes a lot of cash to get there, even using all of the tricks of the trade. I doubt many have the financial means to get to P1 without a substantial corporate travel component (particularly with the 2700 QF SC).

 

[harvyk]

You're ignoring the fact that your full Y fare has to subsidise people traveling on those fares that are less than a nominal $600 return for that flight to make a profit. The margin of your fare over cost of the service does not translate to profit. First that margin has to be attributed to other costs including the benefits that come with status, before the remainder can make it to profit. A small part per flight gets attributed to covering your $400 of Qantas club membership.

It is also worth remembering that you are but one example. On the flip side are all those P1s who spent $32000, or even less. I have trouble with the assumption that most p1s are on corporate travel.

No I strongly suspect most P1's are on corp travel, very few people out there has the money to obtain P1 based solely on private travel, and even fewer know the AFF tips like (the now former) JASA's. You need to remember that the AFF community whilst we're certainly vocal and know the ropes so to speak only form a very small minority of all travelers FFers or not.

Also I strongly suspect that QF makes a profit on all fare classes (ignoring AJ's last "doom and gloom" statement). It doesn't make business sense to fly half your customers around always at a loss, and personally I'd be dropping a large group of loss making customers very quickly. What you are actually paying for with full Y fares is the risk to the airline that you won't make your flight (at no fault of theirs) and that your seat won't be able to be resold in time and yet they will still need to refund your money.

 

[medhead]

What we are trying to compare here is the individual value of a single P1 member versus a single QC member, not the profitability of the airline as a whole. When considered as individuals, the P1 member (after all costs are considered) contributes multitudes more profit to QF than a QC member. The same goes with WP and SG members, just not to the same extent. That is why QC members are the first to get cut from the lounge.

Although I am effectively a self funded P1, it takes a lot of cash to get there, even using all of the tricks of the trade. I doubt many have the financial means to get to P1 without a substantial corporate travel component (particularly with the 2700 QF SC).

Sorry Qantas club members as a group are excluded. We are comparing a group.

But even at an individual level P1 is access to a vanilla Qantas lounge is based on Qantas club membership. That is achieved once they get to Gold level.

Again you seem to be getting confused between profit and margin on a single fare. Even with a big margin on one fare, after all the costs are considered there will be very little profit left. Highly doubtful to be anywhere near 25%. If you as an individual on a single flight buy you high margin seat, 183% $1100 to use your numbers. That margin is gone if they sell 8 of the $450 seats. Meaning zero profit. There is no magic bullet that creates massive profit when they're losing money.

Finally, I'll go back to my example of $32000 to get P1. Sorry to burst your bubble but that example is all on QF metal with no tricks required. Just a bit of hard work. So there is an individual P1 that in no way would have provided $25000 profit. In fact, a bit of hard work and time could get P1 for $27000 now.

 

[Pleb Status]

Sorry Qantas club members as a group are excluded. We are comparing a group.

But even at an individual level P1 is access to a vanilla Qantas lounge is based on Qantas club membership. That is achieved once they get to Gold level.

Again you seem to be getting confused between profit and margin on a single fare. Even with a big margin on one fare, after all the costs are considered there will be very little profit left. Highly doubtful to be anywhere near 25%. If you as an individual on a single flight buy you high margin seat, 183% $1100 to use your numbers. That margin is gone if they sell 8 of the $450 seats. Meaning zero profit. There is no magic bullet that creates massive profit when they're losing money.

Finally, I'll go back to my example of $32000 to get P1. Sorry to burst your bubble but that example is all on QF metal with no tricks required. Just a bit of hard work. So there is an individual P1 that in no way would have provided $25000 profit. In fact, a bit of hard work and time could get P1 for $27000 now.

I am trying to calculate the profit contribution to QF of a single P1 member only. Wether or not a flight, route or airline makes a profit overall it is completely irrelevant to this calculation. It is like a mini profit and loss statement for them only. If QF sells only one seat on a flight but that seat is in full Y, the member is still highly profitable to QF but the flight itself is not.

For a single member, the net profit to QF after all costs associated to that single member only (and no one else) could be well in excess of 25%, and could approach 50%, of the revenue received from that single member if that member purchases corporate fully flexible fares.

I agree that P1 can be earned in the 20k-30k range. However, the vast majority of P1 will spend somewhere in the 50k-100k range and therefore the 25k profit estimate is valid as an overall average. Some will contribute far more and some far less.

 

[medhead]

Also I strongly suspect that QF makes a profit on all fare classes (ignoring AJ's last "doom and gloom" statement). It doesn't make business sense to fly half your customers around always at a loss, and personally I'd be dropping a large group of loss making customers very quickly. What you are actually paying for with full Y fares is the risk to the airline that you won't make your flight (at no fault of theirs) and that your seat won't be able to be resold in time and yet they will still need to refund your money.

I agree. I also doubt Qantas are measuring profit on anything less that a single flight, do we make a profit when we send a plane from point A to point B? You've also made realise it's pointless getting drawn into discussion of dollars on these given the multitude of options to earn. Fortunately Qantas have abstracted that all down into status credits. Regardless of what someone pays all that matters is the status credits earned; that is the measure of contribution. platinum one has made a measurable contribution that gets them a range of benefits. One of those benefits is lounge access. I'm willing to assume that Qantas is pretty clever at this stuff and the proporntion of the platinum one contribution that gets them lounge access is the same as the contribution derived from someone paying cash for the same lounge access.

Anyone this is all a distraction. I haven't suggested denying P1 access to the LAX lounge. My alternative idea is to enforce the guest rule and allow everyone who has paid for access, by whatever means, to enter the lounge. I don't have the numbers to know if that would work, but it remains an alternative that might not see the statused excluded.

I am trying to calculate the profit contribution to QF of a single P1 member only. Wether or not a flight, route or airline makes a profit overall it is completely irrelevant to this calculation. It is like a mini profit and loss statement for them only. If QF sells only one seat on a flight but that seat is in full Y, the member is still highly profitable to QF but the flight itself is not.

For a single member, the net profit to QF after all costs associated to that single member only (and no one else) could be well in excess of 25%, and could approach 50%, of the revenue received from that single member if that member purchases corporate fully flexible fares.

I agree that P1 can be earned in the 20k-30k range. However, the vast majority of P1 will spend somewhere in the 50k-100k range and therefore the 25k profit estimate is valid as an overall average. Some will contribute far more and some far less.

your argument is not about an individual. It is that P1 as a group should not be excluded. What one individual might achieve does not tell us about the worth of the group as a whole. There's one little issue, you want to talk about the individual, but then the $25k is an overall average. :?: I'm struggling to see how it is a valid estimate.

In any case if you want to get onto cash positive arguements, a paid qantas club member traveling on the same fully flexible airfare is generating equal margin as the P1 next to them on the same flight. Plus they've paid for their lounge access. There are obvious holes with this statement but that is the problem with trying to pretend this can be taken to an individual basis.

Anyway, I will finish by saying that is not profit.

 

[blackcat20]

This thread is just going around in circles now. QF have opted to exclude QP members when the lounge is full or nearing full. That's their choice, unfortunately, and QP were always going to be the first excluded as it is a OneWorld lounge, not a QF lounge, and they can't really ban OW status members ahead of QP. No amount of debating it on here is going to change that.

 

[ketsuzei]

I agree that P1 can be earned in the 20k-30k range. However, the vast majority of P1 will spend somewhere in the 50k-100k range and therefore the 25k profit estimate is valid as an overall average. Some will contribute far more and some far less.

It has also been earned for $4,417.11 + points, but that was deemed "unfair".

 

[TomVexille]

It has also been earned for $4,417.11 + points, but that was deemed "unfair".

But how many points?