RedQ or Red Herring?

[MEL_Traveller]

.I dont think there are many executive jets that are widebody but most would be considered a premium flying experience.

not by me!! awful things!!

 

[JohnK]

So the claustrophobia is the real reason you dont like the A320 not because it couldn't be a premium offering.

You got that one right Doc!

I dont think there are many executive jets that are widebody but most would be considered a premium flying experience.So why not an A320.

Yes it would be possible to configure a 737 or A320 in such a way that it would provide a premium flying experience.

What I do not believe is that the new Qantas airline in Asia is going to order 110 A320's and configure them in such a way to provide everyone with a premium flying experience.

I believe sardine can may be closer to the mark....

 

[elbarto]

Rumor has it that it's to feed traffic to Kangaroo route, so SIN is the obvious base. The other bit of the rumor suggest that QF are going in to this pretty blind as they don't know what demand is actually going to be like hence the choice of A320s over anything bigger. I don't know how much of that is to be believed, but going into something without much knowledge seems like a sure fire way of it becoming a total disaster.

 

[andymoo]

I would definitely accept that compromise but you and I know full well know that is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon in this reality.

Joyce has already said that the product on the A320s will be better than that on the A380:

"This product will be better than anything else seen in Asia with lie-flat beds in the business cabin, superior to the award winning first class A380 beds,” Joyce said" -- from an article on Air Transport World (can't link, less than 10 posts...)

IMO this airline serves two purposes:

1. To provide links into Asia on QF Group services. QF can fly Australian pax from Australia to 20-30 Asian destinations with the same number of stops as the rest of their competition (SQ and CX spring to mind here). They can't fly a daily flight from every Australian capital to every major city in Asia, but they can funnel all Australian pax onto a single daily A320 in SIN.

2. To jump into the local market in Asia. Unlike other airlines (SQ, CX, TG, CZ, CA and so on) the brand that is created will be far more versatile, and can easily be expanded. They could end up with 3-4 hubs across Asia, and an enormous and interlocking Asian network (ie an Asian version of what most US airlines have) and grab a lot of market share by being a truly expansive airline, rather than just having a single hub as most others do.

 

[MarkD]

Happy to be corrected, but I thought the 110 order was across the QF GROUP. which included jetstar(s) and potentially qf itself

 

[JohnK]

Joyce has already said that the product on the A320s will be better than that on the A380:

Cynical or skeptical. Either. I do not believe a word Joyce says. And he is not qualified to speak about seats he is not likely to ever sit in either.

1. To provide links into Asia on QF Group services. QF can fly Australian pax from Australia to 20-30 Asian destinations with the same number of stops as the rest of their competition (SQ and CX spring to mind here). They can't fly a daily flight from every Australian capital to every major city in Asia, but they can funnel all Australian pax onto a single daily A320 in SIN.

Not many people I know would want to travel 7-9 hours on a 747, A330, A380 to connect to a cramped A320 for another 4-5 hour flight.

It may well be OK in business class but this would not be desirable in economy class.

Perhaps I am wrong and would gladly patronise this new entity that will ensure Qantas executives continue to earn obscene salaries....

 

[andymoo]

Cynical or skeptical. Either. I do not believe a word Joyce says. And he is not qualified to speak about seats he is not likely to ever sit in either.

I'd say that he's extremely likely to travel in this seats, actually. I imagine that he'll travel in them whenever he's travelling within Asia. In any case, are you therefore saying that we cannot trust Joyce when he has a press release put out about anything in the company? We can't trust that QF will cancel 2 LHR flights soon, or that the A380 will actually be flown on the SYD-HKG route (that's just to drum up sales before they revert on their position!) .

Not many people I know would want to travel 7-9 hours on a 747, A330, A380 to connect to a cramped A320 for another 4-5 hour flight.

What about all those passengers who are currently traveling to China, India etc on SQ, CX, TG etc? They all fly for 7-9 hours with a high end product, followed by the shorter regional hop with a less desirable product. QF can't beat what the competition are offering, but they can match it. That way, while they might not gain pax, they also don't lose any to other carriers.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Joyce has already said that the product on the A320s will be better than that on the A380:

"This product will be better than anything else seen in Asia with lie-flat beds in the business cabin, superior to the award winning first class A380 beds,” Joyce said" -- from an article on Air Transport World (can't link, less than 10 posts...)

.

I would have this verified with RedRoo or some credible source.

I doubt that the CEO would have made that statement in that context above.

But i am always happy to be proved wrong!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It's certainly going to be interesting to see how they configure their aircraft...

According to the airbus website, the passenger cabin length is 90ft 3inches... or 1083 inches in total.

Providing two rows (4 seats) of a product better than the A380 suite would take at least 180 inches (90 inch pitch per row).

That leaves 903 inches. If you make the rest of the plane business class... at 50 inch pitch, that gives another 18 rows x 4 pax per row, or 72 pax, or if you do a mixed class then maybe something like 40 business class (500 inches) leaving twelve rows of economy (72 pax at 32 inch pitch).

Total configuration three class would be around 120.

Nevermind the logistics of catering and staffing an 8 pax premium biz cabin, and having to have three separate cabins with curtains on such a small plane (and what about toilets mid cabin if its a three class config?). Bearing in mind that Dragonair doesn't always fill its 12 seat F class cabins... Ive been on plenty of flights where the load has been less than half.

Then again lets consider logistics at the airport... assuming each of those 110 aircraft will rotate through the home base twice per day... thats 220 departures... 880 premium biz class (assume access to the F class lounge??) and 8800 regular business class... (40 pax x 220 departures).

The size of your lounges are going to have to be huge.

 

[777]

They've got to find a country to put the thing in first.

 

[Justchecking]

Joyce has already said that the product on the A320s will be better than that on the A380:

"This product will be better than anything else seen in Asia with lie-flat beds in the business cabin, superior to the award winning first class A380 beds,” Joyce said" -- from an article on Air Transport World (can't link, less than 10 posts...)

Who needs or will even make use of a fully flat bed on a 5hr flight? Lets think about this for a moment. Take off and ascent, descent and landing chew up an hour combined in which your seat must be upright. So 4hrs left, i cant imagine paying for a bed without also getting a meal too, another hour gone..3hrs left. So I'm going to line up for the single loo upfront behind how many other pax? To change into PJs to sleep for 3hrs, but wait! I'll have to get dressed again too before getting off and line up for the loo to do it.....hell
I might just squeeze in 2-2.5hrs sleep provided my body can drop dead on a dime.

Fully lie flat beds might sound like a great idea on medium haul flights but the reality is they are an extravagance that probably wont be fully utilised and will just take up valuable square footage. Space on an aircraft that could be accomodating another fare paying pax in a relative level of comfort adequate for a 5hr flight. Im presuming these flights wont all be night flights either where people will want to sleep. More than a few will be day time flights in which people will want to work, eat and be refreshed. Even less argument for fully lie flat beds. It sounds like an off the cuff statement meant to wow the crowds before the accountants come in and point out it doesnt make financial sense.

2. To jump into the local market in Asia. Unlike other airlines (SQ, CX, TG, CZ, CA and so on) the brand that is created will be far more versatile, and can easily be expanded.

On what basis do SQ, CX, TG, CZ, CA et al, suffer from a lack of versatility and inability to expand? Nothing stops any of these airlines from buying an A320 and fitting it out in exactly the same way as RedQ and creating a 'premium product' to launch also. In fact they will be better placed because they already have brand recognition, FF members and lounges there.


Will RedQ be a oneworld member? At the time of startup I doubt it. So no reciprocal membership rights....

 

[wilco]

The size of your lounges are going to have to be huge.

Making it nothing more than a catered departure gate. No thanks!!

 

[andymoo]

Who needs or will even make use of a fully flat bed on a 5hr flight? Lets think about this for a moment. Take off and ascent, descent and landing chew up an hour combined in which your seat must be upright. So 4hrs left, i cant imagine paying for a bed without also getting a meal too, another hour gone..3hrs left. So I'm going to line up for the single loo upfront behind how many other pax? To change into PJs to sleep for 3hrs, but wait! I'll have to get dressed again too before getting off and line up for the loo to do it.....hell
I might just squeeze in 2-2.5hrs sleep provided my body can drop dead on a dime.

Fully lie flat beds might sound like a great idea on medium haul flights but the reality is they are an extravagance that probably wont be fully utilised and will just take up valuable square footage. Space on an aircraft that could be accomodating another fare paying pax in a relative level of comfort adequate for a 5hr flight. Im presuming these flights wont all be night flights either where people will want to sleep. More than a few will be day time flights in which people will want to work, eat and be refreshed. Even less argument for fully lie flat beds. It sounds like an off the cuff statement meant to wow the crowds before the accountants come in and point out it doesnt make financial sense.

100% agree. I think the issue comes with providing a service comparable to what other carriers are flying, both with a stop and nonstop. If they can't match the product that SQ (as the benchmark) offer, then they're not going to be very successful. I also think that you have to consider it not as SIN-destination, but as SYD/MEL/BNE etc-destination. Personally, if I'm paying for a J class fare to Asia then I expect a J class product all the way there, not a J class product for some of the way then a half coughd domestic style product for the last leg. I'm also likely to forego a meal at the beginning of the second leg if I've just come off a flight from Aus, so should have a solid 4 hours extra sleep time.

On what basis do SQ, CX, TG, CZ, CA et al, suffer from a lack of versatility and inability to expand? Nothing stops any of these airlines from buying an A320 and fitting it out in exactly the same way as RedQ and creating a 'premium product' to launch also. In fact they will be better placed because they already have brand recognition, FF members and lounges there.

Their brand isn't as simple to take and dump in a new hub on the other side of the continent. A brand like RedQ can (like Jetstar) have hubs across Asia with far fewer brnading issues than Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways, China Airlines etc. RedQ is easy to fit into an Indian hub, a Chinese hub, a SE Asian hub, a NE Asian hub etc. And by the time that they were ready to potentially expand the brands reach, RedQ would also have that brand recognition, FF members and lounges (they wouldn't be expanding the brand unless it was successful).

Will RedQ be a oneworld member? At the time of startup I doubt it. So no reciprocal membership rights....

They don't need to be a oneworld member right from the start. It wouldn't be hard for BA, AA, AY, JL etc to all codeshare on services and provide membership rights... Gives them a strong network into Asia (since everyone seems to reluctant to work with CX) and gives RedQ a strong global network with links to Europe and the US.

 

[JohnK]

IIn any case, are you therefore saying that we cannot trust Joyce when he has a press release put out about anything in the company?

You can trust Joyce if you want. He hasn't done anything as a CEO for me to change my opinion.

What about all those passengers who are currently traveling to China, India etc on SQ, CX, TG etc? They all fly for 7-9 hours with a high end product, followed by the shorter regional hop with a less desirable product. QF can't beat what the competition are offering, but they can match it. That way, while they might not gain pax, they also don't lose any to other carriers.

Although the regional product on the these airlines is less desirable they use 747's, 777's, A340's and A330's. Huge difference between these aircraft and A320's.

But perhaps that is just me.

 

[Happy Trails]

But perhaps that is just me.

You are not alone.

 

[browski]

A brand like RedQ can (like Jetstar) have hubs across Asia with far fewer brnading issues than Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways, China Airlines etc. RedQ is easy to fit into an Indian hub, a Chinese hub, a SE Asian hub, a NE Asian hub etc. And by the time that they were ready to potentially expand the brands reach, RedQ would also have that brand recognition, FF members and lounges (they wouldn't be expanding the brand unless it was successful).

Andy, as much as I admire your optimism and enthusiasm, I'm going to make the call that not one of the above items will ever occur.

I can confidently predict that the lion's share of those A320s will go to replace the current QF domestic fleet and the remainder to Jetstar/Jetstar Asia/Jetstar Japan. RedQ, if it actually gets off the ground, will be 3 x A320 aircraft which fly PEK-SIN, PVG-SIN and perhaps DEL-SIN.......and no frequent flyers (not even those discerning Chinese middle/upper class). are going to fly those aircraft when you can fly widebody jets on those routes with the esteemed competitors.

For those that doubt the Asian preference for widebody jets, consider these two points.

1. KUL-SIN has a bucket load of 737s/A320s flying this route with Silk Air, MH and JQ. Yet the one daily SQ flight flying either a 330 or 777 is always overbooked.....and that flight is barely 40mins.
2. MH charge more for domestic flights where they use an A330 rather than a 737. In the same vein, don't Qantas compete with VA on the SYD/MEL-PER routes by marketing a 747 service? Are they only marketing at J customers... I don't think so.

Finally, can anybody name the RedQ CEO?

 

[medhead]

Then again lets consider logistics at the airport... assuming each of those 110 aircraft will rotate through the home base twice per day... thats 220 departures... 880 premium biz class (assume access to the F class lounge??) and 8800 regular business class... (40 pax x 220 departures).

The size of your lounges are going to have to be huge.

RedQ is not getting all 110 aircraft according the the announcements made to date. Jetstar [-]Asia[/-] Japan are getting something like [-]32[/-] 24 of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Aust Freq Fly app so please excuse the lack of links.

 

[oz_mark]

While I think some of these recent large orders will get pared back in time, lets go with the 110 they have been talking about

RedQ was slated to get 11 of them. Jetstar Japan was getting 24 of them.

The bulk of the planes are going to Jetstar, and most of them are apparently going to be used to start rolling over the existing fleet.

 

[Mal]

According to the AFR today there are reports that RedQ is going to be shelved due to economic uncertainty in Europe.

http://www.afr.com/p/business/companies/global_uncertainty_hits_qantas_0EcwR8wm8SS0eH2dgO4a9N (Note it's paywalled)

Qantas Airways is poised to walk away from the controversial plan to establish a new premium airline in Asia as European turmoil shakes confidence.

 

[Justchecking]

Oh well, theres still the orange empire. Maybe they can put a few nice seats up the front of those....:shock: