RedQ or Red Herring?

[wilco]

After seeing your comment in the thread about meeting others from AFF, if you're going to get all grumpy with people like this I can see why you don't want to meet others in person.....

Edit: In all seriousness, can everyone just chill out a bit.

And there you go again.... Off on your own little tangent.....

And yes, it's people like you and amaroo that I'd least like to meet, if your online behavior is anything to go by....

 

[wilco]

Wilco, you make me smile.

Are you upset that other members are not arguing with you With quotes like the one above.......I think this forum may not be the one for you:!:

I don't want or need people to argue with me. I'd rather agree to disagree. But by George, your behavior to date leaves a lot to be desired, so yes, if this forum is full of people like you, then it is NOT the place for me. Thank Christ there are some members who have some common sense and can structure a logical argument with whom I can have a robust mature discussion.

 

[Moody]

And there you go again.... Off on your own little tangent.....

And yes, it's people like you and amaroo that I'd least like to meet, if your online behavior is anything to go by....

Chill out, wilco. There will always be people like this in the world, and quite a few contribute to AFF. Just be thankful Andrew Bolt doesn't contribute to this forum, but sends his acolytes instead.

 

[el_rooto]

Haters gonna hate....

 

[JohnK]

....or alternatively Qantas shareholders acquire the board and management needed to run an airline while they still have an airline to manage...

Either one is fine by me.

Just to be clear, according to AJ today RedQ is still going and has not been cancelled. If it had been he would be obliged to notify the ASX and he hasnt done so.

I am sorry but Joyce has a long way to go before I believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Simple question but who actually believes that this new airline is going ahead?

I certainly don't believe it will ever get off the ground.

 

[straitman]

Edit: In all seriousness, can everyone just chill out a bit.

[mod hat on]
Agreed that a few people need to calm down a little.

Some should consider themselves lucky that only a few posts has been removed and that they are not many warnings.

Stop discussing the people and get back to the topic.[/mod hat off]

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...

Option 1 : Maybe you are indeed are highly experienced airline executive that has created & managed a still trading, flying & profitable business - you're comfortable with your stage in life & not one to boast about your achievements.

the problem with this is that so called highly experienced airline executives have companies found guilty of price fixing and pay massive fines. so clearly they don't know what they're doing all the time.

and just about 99% of the worlds highly experiences airline executives are running with major losses and many are on the verge of bankruptcy.

so the term 'highly experienced airline executive' doesn't seem to imply much about being able to run an airline...

 

[Jobu]

[h=4]KL (about 60 airlines) vs Singapore (about 77 airlines). Not too big a difference.

Airlines flying to Kuala Lumpur International

Direct from Australia
[/h][TABLE="class: sm_table sm_table_sections3"]
[TR]
[TD]Emirates flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Asia flights[/TD]
[TD]Malaysia Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[h=4]Other airlines flying to Kuala Lumpur International
[/h][TABLE="class: sm_table sm_table_sections3"]
[TR]
[TD]Singapore Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Vietnam Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Royal Brunei flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Thai Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]EgyptAir flights[/TD]
[TD]PIA flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cathay Pacific flights[/TD]
[TD]Saudi Arabian Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Air-India Express flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Southern flights[/TD]
[TD]SriLankan Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]EVA Air flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qatar Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Turkish Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Astana flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Korean Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Alitalia flights[/TD]
[TD]IranAir flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Garuda Indonesia flights[/TD]
[TD]bmi flights[/TD]
[TD]Air France flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philippine Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Oman Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Yemenia flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Etihad Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Lion Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Firefly flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]ANA flights[/TD]
[TD]British Airways flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Mauritius flights[/TD]
[TD]Japan Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Austrian Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qantas flights[/TD]
[TD]Xiamen Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]SAS flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]KLM flights[/TD]
[TD]Gulf Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Transaero Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SilkAir flights[/TD]
[TD]South African Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Royal Nepal Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jet Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Kuwait Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]United Airways Bangladesh flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air China flights[/TD]
[TD]Merpati flights[/TD]
[TD]Air India flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cebu Pacific flights[/TD]
[TD]Royal Jordanian flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Zimbabwe flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Eastern flights[/TD]
[TD]Biman Bangladesh Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Mihin Lanka flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lufthansa flights[/TD]
[TD]Uzbekistan Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Madagascar flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[h=4]Airlines flying to Singapore

Direct from Australia
[/h][TABLE="class: sm_table sm_table_sections3"]
[TR]
[TD]Emirates flights[/TD]
[TD]British Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Jetstar flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Singapore Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Qantas flights[/TD]
[TD]Etihad Airways flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[h=4]Other airlines flying to Singapore
[/h][TABLE="class: sm_table sm_table_sections3"]
[TR]
[TD]Cathay Pacific flights[/TD]
[TD]Air France flights[/TD]
[TD]EgyptAir flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Malaysia Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Continental Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Iberia flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Asia flights[/TD]
[TD]Japan Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Transaero Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Eastern flights[/TD]
[TD]Air India flights[/TD]
[TD]Air-India Express flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Garuda Indonesia flights[/TD]
[TD]KLM flights[/TD]
[TD]Valuair flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Thai Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Jet Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]LOT flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Southern flights[/TD]
[TD]Vietnam Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Alitalia flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Asiana Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Xiamen Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Spanair flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Philippine Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]US Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Hainan Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Korean Air flights[/TD]
[TD]SilkAir flights[/TD]
[TD]Lao Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]China Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Virgin Atlantic flights[/TD]
[TD]Batavia Air flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]EVA Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Swiss flights[/TD]
[TD]Austrian Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Niugini flights[/TD]
[TD]Finnair flights[/TD]
[TD]Trans Asia Airways flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air Mauritius flights[/TD]
[TD]South African Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Macau flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Royal Brunei flights[/TD]
[TD]SriLankan Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Oman Air flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Air China flights[/TD]
[TD]Bangkok Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]TAP flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lufthansa flights[/TD]
[TD]Firefly flights[/TD]
[TD]Biman Bangladesh Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ANA flights[/TD]
[TD]Kingfisher flights[/TD]
[TD]Ethiopian Airlines flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cebu Pacific flights[/TD]
[TD]Saudi Arabian Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Mihin Lanka flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lion Air flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Canada flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Madagascar flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Delta flights[/TD]
[TD]Hong Kong Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]Air Berlin flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]United flights[/TD]
[TD]AirphilExpress flights[/TD]
[TD]Merpati flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turkish Airlines flights[/TD]
[TD]SAS flights[/TD]
[TD]Berjaya Air flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Qatar Airways flights[/TD]
[TD]IndiGo flights[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]







Source: www.skyscanner.com.au

 

[JohnPhelan]

Current QF management are effectively arguing that the Qantas brand, it's reputation, and its culture are a net liability and not a net asset. They argue that the company's asset is the ability they have to attract capital and run an airline and that the future is to be found by diminishing the Qantas brand and transfering the "asset" elsewhere. I disagree. I think Qantas is the asset and while it is not perfect, building it, investing in it, reforming it (i am not here to defend dated work practices), and growing it (in Asia and elsewhere) is the right direction to take the company in. I think the risk of investing in a portfolio of new start up airlines is actually a lot higher than investing sensibly in Qantas.

QF management are certainly not saying that the QF brand and its reputation are a liability; Joyce, Clifford and others consistently talk about the great strength (and resilience) of the QF brand and its strong reputation around the world (paradoxically only further reinforced by the handling of the A380 incident last year).

I think it is true, though, to say that at least some aspects of the ''culture'' are a liability. There are certainly some QF staff who very much still have the 'public service' mentality, of feeling that they are owed a job and who regard customers as a bit of a nuisance. (We've all met them in our travels).

It seems to me that these people don't see any need for change and just want things to continue as they always have. Reality is not a concept with which they are familiar. (I have a view that at least some of them honestly believe that "the government wouldn't let QF fail, they'd bail them out". Well, that's what people said about Ansett, too.)

The aviation world has changed a lot; airlines and staff need to change with it.

Interesting tonight to see Peter Harbison from the Centre for Asia-Pacific Aviation agreeing that Asia is where QF's future lies (the company, not necessarily the airline of the same name). And that's why the cost base and work practices need to be addressed.

 

[JohnPhelan]

Thank Christ there are some members who have some common sense and can structure a logical argument with whom I can have a robust mature discussion.

It would be great if people showed some manners and left the blasphemy out of their posts.

 

[medhead]

Unlike you not to read the full thread!

Now, I was accused of purposely straying of course with distractions - I was simply highlighting to my fellow member that one should practice what they preach.

I've read the thread; the accusation included more than just distractions.....

 

[oz_mark]

Just to be clear, according to AJ today RedQ is still going and has not been cancelled. If it had been he would be obliged to notify the ASX and he hasnt done so.

Simple question but who actually believes that this new airline is going ahead?

Keep in mind that three airlines have been reported as thinking about a premium regional airline:

• Air Asia have been reported as looking at an airline to be called Caterham
• Malaysia Airlines have been reported as looking at an airline to be called Sapphire (possibly in conjunction with Air Asia)
• Qantas have, let's call it RedQ

So, there is a possibility that a new airline will get up, but what it will look like is anyones guess. All three of the mooted new airlines look different, and barely a common feature among them.

My guess is that something will get up, but it may not look like the airline that has been described to this point in time.

 

[Moody]

I have no problems with Qantas expanding into Asia and either creating a new entity or partnering with a local operator. But I do have concerns about how they will choose to run the so-called "RedQ".

In the good old days Qantas used to fly to NZ ferrying Aussie business people and tourists to that fabulous cousin of ours, and vice-versa with some Kiwis. Meanwhile AirNZ was doing the reverse.


Then Qantas management realised to their horror that AirNZ were paying their predominantly Kiwi pilots and crew Kiwi wages. "Why don't we do that?" they thought, and promptly created Jetconnect and effectively terminated the Qantas trans-Tasman presence. So Qantas revenue is used to pay a Kiwi based operation to ferry Australians to and from (and then around) NZ.


Now I am not Australian but when I fly Qantas I expect to be piloted and crewed predominantly by Australians. There are some logical exceptions for long-haul (e.g. - handing over to a UK-based crew in Asia for the second leg to the UK), but for domestic travel and international flights to/from Oz ports I think Qantas should employ Australian citizens and residents - not outsource to the lowest bidder.

I know - this hardly promotes shareholders and management as the most important people on this planet, but that's just my view on life.

 

[nlagalle]

I have no problems with Qantas expanding into Asia and either creating a new entity or partnering with a local operator. But I do have concerns about how they will choose to run the so-called "RedQ".

In the good old days Qantas used to fly to NZ ferrying Aussie business people and tourists to that fabulous cousin of ours, and vice-versa with some Kiwis. Meanwhile AirNZ was doing the reverse.


Then Qantas management realised to their horror that AirNZ were paying their predominantly Kiwi pilots and crew Kiwi wages. "Why don't we do that?" they thought, and promptly created Jetconnect and effectively terminated the Qantas trans-Tasman presence. So Qantas revenue is used to pay a Kiwi based operation to ferry Australians to and from (and then around) NZ.


Now I am not Australian but when I fly Qantas I expect to be piloted and crewed predominantly by Australians. There are some logical exceptions for long-haul (e.g. - handing over to a UK-based crew in Asia for the second leg to the UK), but for domestic travel and international flights to/from Oz ports I think Qantas should employ Australian citizens and residents - not outsource to the lowest bidder.

I know - this hardly promotes shareholders and management as the most important people on this planet, but that's just my view on life.

Well there is no suggestion (in fact even mentioned) that domestic ops were being outsourced to overseas pilots.

So by your token, then no Australian pilots should fly for the likes of SQ CX EK etc.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Well there is no suggestion (in fact even mentioned) that domestic ops were being outsourced to overseas pilots.

So by your token, then no Australian pilots should fly for the likes of SQ CX EK etc.

but part of the reason I fly sq and cx is that I know they have Australian and British pilots if they don't have sufficient local crew. I do not necessarily want a pilot who has gained qualifications (or not) in India, or even Africa where standards are potentially dubious at the least for some new crew.

I am sure part of the qf brand is in fact the experience of their pilots, and the fact they might have been with qf for many years.

 

[serfty]

...
Then Qantas management realised to their horror that AirNZ were paying their predominantly Kiwi pilots and crew Kiwi wages. "Why don't we do that?" they thought, and promptly created Jetconnect and effectively terminated the Qantas trans-Tasman presence. So Qantas revenue is used to pay a Kiwi based operation to ferry Australians to and from (and then around) NZ. ...

"Chicken or Egg" mixup there; Jetconnect originally operated QF liveried ZK registered aircraft around New Zealand.

So they already existed and were not "created" for T-T service.

Later on they began to operate some T-T services and eventually, Qantas decided competing with DJ and NZ for domestic NZ services was losing too much money so they handed their domestic NZ operations to Jetstar and switched the existing Jetconnect equipment/staff to T-T.

 

[JohnPhelan]

but part of the reason I fly sq and cx is that I know they have Australian and British pilots if they don't have sufficient local crew.

I am sure part of the qf brand is in fact the experience of their pilots, and the fact they might have been with qf for many years.

Then why don't you fly with QF?

 

[nlagalle]

but part of the reason I fly sq and cx is that I know they have Australian and British pilots if they don't have sufficient local crew. I do not necessarily want a pilot who has gained qualifications (or not) in India, or even Africa where standards are potentially dubious at the least for some new crew.

I am sure part of the qf brand is in fact the experience of their pilots, and the fact they might have been with qf for many years.

A comment like that shows you don't understand aviation and how licensing works.

It still doesn't even answer my original question, being that if QF should only employ Australian pilots, so SQ should only employ singaporian pilots and Cathay hong Kong pilots?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

A comment like that shows you don't understand aviation and how licensing works.

yeah... actually I do.

 

[wilco]

A comment like that shows you don't understand aviation and how licensing works.

It still doesn't even answer my original question, being that if QF should only employ Australian pilots, so SQ should only employ singaporian pilots and Cathay hong Kong pilots?

I think you may have missed the point entirely. the issue at hand is not about the nationality of the pilots in question, except perhaps those trained in countries that have a perceived lack of aviation safety and regulation. The issue is that Qantas pilots, irrespective of their nationality ought to be paid the Australian pilots wage.

Im sure that Hong Kong and Singaporean pilots would be up in arms if expats were brought in on lower wages, as has been done with "Jitkineckt" and a model that QF would undoubtedly like to extend across its entire network.

I have no issue with Qantas using the Thai and UK based crew between Australia and the UK via BKK but I certainly dont expect to find them on OZ-LAX flights, Why you ask? because I dont see their relevance. By that I mean their language skills are not relevant to the sector and this is the sole differentiator between them and OZ based crew. Oh yeah, that and their salary!!

This situation does not exist with the tech crews. Im not pretending to know if jetconnect crews are trained to the same high Qantas standards, but given QF's insistence (when it suits them) that they are a wholly owned subsidiary and ARE NOT QANTAS, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the training is at best different and at worst, inferior to mainline pilots.