Reduction in Transfer Rates to Velocity/Krisflyer

[Kangol]

FWIW I spoke to a supervisor yesterday and asked specifically about 6.2 - getting her to read it to me word for word.
I asked what "earned" referred to - she replied with: the number of Citibank points received per dollar spent.
I then asked what "converted" referred to - she said it was the same thing!
And that the process of exchanging Citibank to KF miles was not a "conversion", it was a "redemption" - which covers them in the third bullet point.

 

[JohnJa]

Reading the response given on the AUSBT article:

In response to questions posed by Australian Business Traveller, a Citibank spokesperson said "The 90 days’ notice is based on if we remove the program in whole or change the way points are earned in the rewards program, or in the case of Citi Prestige Qantas and Signature Qantas, the way points are converted ie $1 spend = 1 QFF Point."

How would any reasonable person ever deduct that from 6.2a? Surely if you have to add words to the meaning of your T&Cs, then they are ambiguous and the way that everyone else is reading them is how they should be interpreted.

 

[CJEMNMAC]

FWIW I spoke to a supervisor yesterday and asked specifically about 6.2 - getting her to read it to me word for word.
I asked what "earned" referred to - she replied with: the number of Citibank points received per dollar spent.
I then asked what "converted" referred to - she said it was the same thing!
And that the process of exchanging Citibank to KF miles was not a "conversion", it was a "redemption" - which covers them in the third bullet point.

Except that on their rewards website it is called a " Points Transfer "... they are struggling

 

[GalaxyNexus]

I would imagine people dealing with S****ybank going forward would read the T&Cs in a "what's in there that's going to bite me" instead of "yeah that's reasonable" perspective. Really when the goodwill is lost, no amount of T&Cs would make me trust the counterparty.

 

[M@rcoPolo]

... they are struggling

Yes they are

As pointed out earlier, it's a waste of time trying to argue with them over the phone.

However it's important to clearly state your claim (e.g. I want my xx_ points transferred at the "old" 1:5 to 1 ration OR I want YYY points as compensation) pursuant to clause 6.2 and when you get an unsatisfactory answer (e.g. best we can do is 10,000 points - or just a straight "NO" because of BS, BS and more BS) then get a case number or at least the employee name and ID number and tell them that's required to lodge a complain with FOS & ACCC. Best to get the above in writing (internal secure mail) if possible, or else make sure you write down dates and times of your phone conversations and note them in your complain.

 

[turnip666]

Even if Citi are forced to return/ reimburse people for their points it will likely take some time, especially if an ACCC ruling is required.

Would it make sense to cancel the card ASAP or retain it or cancel it? If it is cancelled and access to their site is lost it is harder to track any return

 

[kyle]

Except that on their rewards website it is called a " Points Transfer "... they are struggling

Take a copy of the page in case they change the wording.

 

[yohy?!]

Yes they are

As pointed out earlier, it's a waste of time trying to argue with them over the phone.

However it's important to clearly state your claim (e.g. I want my xx_ points transferred at the "old" 1:5 to 1 ration OR I want YYY points as compensation) pursuant to clause 6.2 and when you get an unsatisfactory answer (e.g. best we can do is 10,000 points - or just a straight "NO" because of BS, BS and more BS) then get a case number or at least the employee name and ID number and tell them that's required to lodge a complain with FOS & ACCC. Best to get the above in writing (internal secure mail) if possible, or else make sure you write down dates and times of your phone conversations and note them in your complain.

+1

I used secure email and they SMS'd me the reference number when they replied, confirmed this reference related to the response with them then opened the FO case (plus an ACCC consumer complaint for good measure).

 

[coles525]

Ive read much of the citifake Facebook page....

Doubt that the replies from them will change: we value your input...

 

[daveozsydney]

Ladies, Gents,

Thanks for the overwhelming response from people wanting to be a part of this joint action against Citibank.
It's truly amazing how quickly things can be organised with the internet and Citibank have misjudged this.

We now have three legal minds who have volunteered their services.

And we have 28 people on board and a combined total of over 21 Million Points affected, with a damages value that I have calculated at approximately $334,000.
based on 52 one way East Coast Australia to Europe Zone 1 priced at 68,000 Krisflyer Points and priced at $6,363.74 on the Singapore website for December 8th (random date selected).
(this was slightly higher than the equivalent First class award calculation - 99,875 points at $9,032.04 per one way ticket).

This is obviously a material sum of money for individual consumers.

We have a draft letter that has been put together and we will be aiming to send this out for review later today.
I would like to discuss the options with a Senior Exec at Citibank to bring this to a conclusion if possible.

This mounts a case on a number of fronts including:

Abuse of their AFS licence number 238098. This is a criminal and not 'just' a civil offence.
Breach of ASIC Act
Breach of Contract
Breach of Competition and Consumer Act 2010
Corporations Act 2001
National Consumer Credit Protection Act 2009

We will also be referencing the ACCC press release dated 11 June 2002 confirming the breach of the law.

Thanks again and we will keep you posted.

Regards,

Dave

 

[burmans]

Reading the response given on the AUSBT article:

In response to questions posed by Australian Business Traveller, a Citibank spokesperson said "The 90 days’ notice is based on if we remove the program in whole or change the way points are earned in the rewards program, or in the case of Citi Prestige Qantas and Signature Qantas, the way points are converted ie $1 spend = 1 QFF Point."

How would any reasonable person ever deduct that from 6.2a? Surely if you have to add words to the meaning of your T&Cs, then they are ambiguous and the way that everyone else is reading them is how they should be interpreted.

Agree this argument wont get far in front of FOS or ACCC, T&C's will be judged by what is in them rather than a convoluted explanation by Citibank of the "intent" of them which doesn't align with what is actually written. Indeed this bit plays right into the description of misleading conduct, if that was what Citibank intended then they should have written it that way.

 

[turnip666]

Well done Dave.
Hope we far fewer Citibusiness card holders don't get overlooked in any response from them. Our loss is 50% and is the only card affected from QF.

 

[VAG newbie]

BTW, when they reply the secured message, how do they do it? Email? Phone call or through netbank account?

In my complaint, instead of arguing about whether it's transfer points to KF/VA is redemption or conversion, I'm attacking them on clause 6.2.3 that I need evidence that:
1. FFP is "goods or services". Clearly according to both KF and VA, FFP remains the property of the airlines and shall not be sold, traded or bartered without airline's approval. That in itself says it's not goods or services as you can't sell it.
2. The suppliers (in this case, KF and VA) have raised the price so the adjusted redemption points reflects that change.
3. Even if they can provide evidence of 2, I need a good explanation that it happened so sudden that Citibank does not have time to inform the customers.

If they can't prove any of that then they haven't got any ground to stick to 6.2.3.

Even if they can prove all of the above, they are still in danger of violating the trade practices act 1974 in that they:
- hide in the fine print or fail to disclose the truth about the restriction imposed on the redemption of those rewards (clearly, they have not defined FFP as goods or services in their disclosure, and any normal person would not consider it as goods but currency)
- seek to retrospectively change programs or offers to the disadvantage of consumers (which clearly they did).

I am no lawyer so I welcome any fellow lawyer members (or anyone with any background in law) to comment.

 

[bcworld]

Latest comment from Citi in reply to a comment on their FB page!

https://www.facebook.com/citibankaustralia/posts/1155808841113767

Citi Australia Hi Leigh. The conversion rate for the two airline programs will be returned to the rate that applied at 31 October. We appreciate your feedback. Thanks again.

Like · Reply · 9 minutes ago

 

[filtercore]

I'm the Leigh in question on that Facebook post. Was pretty surprised to see that response.

I reckon they'll still change the transfer values down the track, but with the 90 days notice.

 

[turnip666]

Latest comment from Citi in reply to a comment on their FB page!

https://www.facebook.com/citibankaustralia/posts/1155808841113767

Citi Australia Hi Leigh. The conversion rate for the two airline programs will be returned to the rate that applied at 31 October. We appreciate your feedback. Thanks again.

Like · Reply · 9 minutes ago

Wow...will be getting them out of there asap if this holds up

Hope it's not just for you Leigh!

 

[turnip666]

This message now is popping up on more FB posts

Like · Reply · 37 mins




Citi Australia Hi Sue. Thanks for getting in touch - we appreciate your feedback. The conversion rate for the two airline programs will be returned to the rate that applied at 31 October. Thanks.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · Just now

 

[cervlean]

Just signed up for AFF as I stumbled across this thread when looking into this debacle and have found you all so clueful - thanks!

I made a complaint in the weekend that I've yet to hear back on, so have followed up with a secure message this morning. I'll be making FOS and ACCC complaints as soon as I get a case number from Citi. I've got a balance of 300k on my Signature card, so nothing huge, but enough to be annoying.

Dave, I'd be happy to sign up to your effort if you can PM me for my details.

 

[JohnJa]

Regarding the Citibank Facebook comment, I like how they called it a CONVERSION rate rather than a points redemption!

 

[lmere12]

Just seen this on my facebook from Citi

Citi Australia Hi Leigh. We appreciate your feedback. The conversion rate for the two airline programs will be returned to the rate that applied at 31 October. Thanks again.