The 6:30am BNE-SYD is gone and I am not on it [No ESTA]

[MEL_Traveller]

LOL. What expense did Virgin save me yesterday?

Well - if they got you to SYD and for some reason your ESTA hadn't come through, you'd have to get home. If you had accepted all liability for that, that would have meant potentially $279 (the lowest VA fare when I checked at the time, maybe other airlines were cheaper).

But I think this turns on VA's definition of check-in, sectors, and 'destination'. If you could get a clear answer fm them that they could/should have carried you to SYD it's a moot point.

Let's take you (JohnK) out of this picture for a second and let's say I had my 80 year old parents booked to wherever. I drop them off at MEL airport but get a call two hours later saying 'oh, your folks didn't have the right visa, but we carried them to SYD anyway at their undertaking, now they need to get home, how would you like to pay for that?'

I'd be asking the airline why they took my parents to SYD in the first place given the terms and conditions are clear that they can't board unless they have all the relevant visas.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

If it is not legal and not system, then what else could it be other than a customer service issue?

It could be considered a contractual issue.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>
Correct me if I am wrong (and yes I read all 28 pages and betting on 50 as well), what is the difference between not being allowed to check in because of no ESTA and arriving late? I have heard of many people arriving late but being fine if hand-luggage only (myself included on QF). Isn't this a customer service question and whether or not there was something more that VA could have done?

<snip>

Did you actually read all 28 pages? If so, you may have assimilated the fact that one key issue has been whether the system would allow a check-in on a domestic leg of an international flight to the USA without an ESTA, which is required before check in for travel to the USA.

Arriving late for a regular flight HLO doesn't involve an ESTA and US government regulations under which airlines flying there must operate, on pain of substantial fines.

So its a bit more than an airline service issue. Matter of US Government law (and how its applied and/or interpreted by Virgin).

<snip>
A few more comment on bending the rules and special exemptions. Isn't that what this forum is all about? Being more knowledgeable travellers so we can take advantage of things, to bend the rules to our end? Being able to handle it when things go wrong? One of the main points people gave for "why to have status", including myself, is to have a little more help when something goes wrong.
<snip>

Sure, but again the issue is United States law, and how its applied to pax ex Australia flying into the USA. If you find a way to 'bend the rules' of laws like that, with or without status, best keep it to yourself.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Did you actually read all 28 pages? If so, you may have assimilated the fact that one key issue has been whether the system would allow a check-in on a domestic leg of an international flight to the USA without an ESTA, which is required before check in for travel to the USA.

Arriving late for a regular flight HLO doesn't involve an ESTA and US government regulations under which airlines flying there must operate, on pain of substantial fines.

So its a bit more than an airline service issue. Matter of US Government law.




Sure, but again the issue is United States law, and how its applied to pax ex Australia flying into the USA. If you find a way to 'bend the rules' of laws like that, with or without status, best keep it to yourself.

I don't think US law can control check-in at a domestic station in Australia. They could govern, through the airline's rights to fly to the USA, the clearance of pax on international sectors from AU.

 

[Moindardt]

Did you actually read all 28 pages? If so, you may have assimilated the fact that one key issue has been whether the system would allow a check-in on a domestic leg of an international flight to the USA without an ESTA, which is required before check in for travel to the USA.

Arriving late for a regular flight HLO doesn't involve an ESTA and US government regulations under which airlines flying there must operate, on pain of substantial fines.

So its a bit more than an airline service issue. Matter of US Government law.

Sure, but again the issue is United States law, and how its applied to pax ex Australia flying into the USA. If you find a way to 'bend the rules' of laws like that, with or without status, best keep it to yourself.

As I said, it doesn't appear to be legal issue because QF does it. Nothing was ever established to say whether or not it was a system issue or legal issue. If that is the real issue, then everything else is a moot point. If it wasn't though, then it was a customer service issue. As far as I can see, people have speculated about this as a cause, but all the evidence that QF can do it seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

As I said, it doesn't appear to be legal issue because QF does it. Nothing was ever established to say whether or not it was a system issue or legal issue. If that is the real issue, then everything else is a moot point. If it wasn't though, then it was a customer service issue. As far as I can see, people have speculated about this as a cause, but all the evidence that QF can do it seems to indicate otherwise.

contractual issue. Which is separate from a legal (law/regulation) which prevents travel (ie from the US government, which I don't think applies).

Although I suppose you could lump the contractual issue in with customer service as the airline could waive its reliance on the contract if it wanted to.

 

[Princess Fiona]

As I said, it doesn't appear to be legal issue because QF does it. Nothing was ever established to say whether or not it was a system issue or legal issue. If that is the real issue, then everything else is a moot point. If it wasn't though, then it was a customer service issue. As far as I can see, people have speculated about this as a cause, but all the evidence that QF can do it seems to indicate otherwise.

Did we ever establish that QF have allowed short-checking of a passenger on a US bound itinerary who didn't have an ESTA at check-in for the domestic sector?

Apologies if I may have missed it in the previous 200 odd posts.

 

[Moindardt]

Did we ever establish that QF have allowed short-checking of a passenger on a US bound itinerary who didn't have an ESTA at check-in for the domestic sector?

Apologies if I may have missed it in the previous 200 odd posts.

There was a number of examples given by a number of people so I am guessing so. It wasn't exactly an easy read.

 

[serfty]

Did we ever establish that QF have allowed short-checking of a passenger on a US bound itinerary who didn't have an ESTA at check-in for the domestic sector?

Apologies if I may have missed it in the previous 200 odd posts.

I suggest looking for specific posts by OzbeachBabe and theinsider ...

 

[Moindardt]

contractual issue. Which is separate from a legal (law/regulation) which prevents travel (ie from the US government, which I don't think applies).

Although I suppose you could lump the contractual issue in with customer service as the airline could waive its reliance on the contract if it wanted to.

That is my point. Any ticket is a contract and can be varied if both parties agree. Customer service do this all the time. They can effectively do what they want so long as you both agree. It's generally a question of whether they can be bothered. A good agent will move heaven and earth, or at least try, which is, I think, the whole issue here. If it wasn't possible, then it wasn't possible and JohnK would probably be thanking them for at least trying. It could have been a post like swanning_it's this morning thanking Qantas.

By the way, I kept thinking the app was crashing again when it showed only this topic in the timeline. Can't believe it was actually real. *lol*

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It's generally a question of whether they can be bothered.

Also a question of risk. Several factors... how long to they hold the flight? OP got the ESTA at 6.10. What if it was going to be 6.15? What if the Op didn't receive their ESTA (not uncommon for there to be a delay and it not be instant).

 

[RooFlyer]

I don't think US law can control check-in at a domestic station in Australia. They could govern, through the airline's rights to fly to the USA, the clearance of pax on international sectors from AU.

As I said, it doesn't appear to be legal issue because QF does it. Nothing was ever established to say whether or not it was a system issue or legal issue. If that is the real issue, then everything else is a moot point. If it wasn't though, then it was a customer service issue. As far as I can see, people have speculated about this as a cause, but all the evidence that QF can do it seems to indicate otherwise.

US law no doubt requires inbound passengers from Australia to have a valid ESTA. They can extend that law extra-territorially into Australia via bilateral agreements with the Australian government and, in effect, by requiring that airlines in Australia comply at any point the US government specifies.

Some-one here explained this previously:

US Government: Sure you don't have to comply with our requirements. You don't have to fly to the United States, either.

Separately, airlines have all sorts of rules they apply to passengers who fly with them. If a passenger doesn't comply with such rules and the airline doesn't waive the rule to suit the passenger, I wouldn't call that a 'service' issue. If Virgin has a rule about requiring an ESTA at the first point of check-in for an international flight, then its a rule to be enforced (and I concede that its still an if at the moment). Giving discretion to their check in agents on a matter like this would be fraught. If Qantas don't have such a rule, then good for them, but not relevant to this situation.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

US law no doubt requires inbound passengers from Australia to have a valid ESTA. They can extend that law extra-territorially into Australia via bilateral agreements with the Australian government and, in effect, by requiring airlines comply at any point the US government specifies.

Inbound from the Au gateway yes. Domestic connector - highly unlikely. Bilateral agreement? I don't know, is it? I'd be surprised if it was. Could be as simple as a condition of the licence to operate to the USA.

 

[RooFlyer]

Inbound from the Au gateway yes. Domestic connector - highly unlikely. Bilateral agreement? I don't know, is it?

I agree re the Au gateway - hence the second leg of my post re Virgin's own rules. I don't know about a bilateral either, but I think it would be reasonable to think there would be something in place. The US likes a 'belt and braces' approach and I don't think it would want to just rely on some foreign airline to enforce its requirements. Remember that the US regards this as part of national security policy so would be pretty serious about seeing it happen. But, like many things in this thread - unknown.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I agree re the Au gateway - hence the second leg of my post re Virgin's own rules. I don't know about a bilateral either, but I think it would be reasonable to think there would be something in place. The US likes a 'belt and braces' approach and I don't think it would want to just rely on some foreign airline to enforce its requirements. Remember that the US regards this as part of national security policy so would be pretty serious about seeing it happen. But, like many things in this thread - unknown.

it is extraordinarily rare for one country to extend its powers into another and a country doesn't just give up its sovereign power.

enforcing it is pretty easy without any formal agreement in place... the airline is refused permission to fly, or if they do get to the USA, they can be fined.

but it would be interesting if anyone has the scoop.

edited to add: I think this is an airline issue. Australian immigration doesn't check visa or ESTA requirements. It is solely up to the airlines at check-in to do so.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I suggest looking for specific posts by OzbeachBabe and theinsider...

I found that post but I do not believe that it confirms that QF have ever allowed a short check without a valid ESTA. Bags being checked to other pax in the itinerary and the pax being moved to a later flight is what I'm seeing here. VA can't move JohnK to a later flight and the last resort option was requested by the check-in agent when it became apparent that he wasn't able to obtain an ESTA prior to closure of check-in.

 

[RooFlyer]

it is extraordinarily rare for one country to extend its powers into another and a country doesn't just give up its sovereign power.

enforcing it is pretty easy without any formal agreement in place... the airline is refused permission to fly, or if they do get to the USA, they can be fined.

but it would be interesting if anyone has the scoop.

We can disagree but the US has a bit of a habit (not to mention track record) of enforcing ... one way or another ... extra territoriality of its laws. Countries give up their 'sovereign power' to the US all the time; its hard to argue when a 800 pound gorilla has its arms wrapped around you and/or you rely on that gorilla to defend you if push comes to shove.

A while back the US forced Canada to require its airlines to screen manifests of flights entirely within Canadian airspace, but within 50 miles of the border, for pax on the US 'no fly' list. They justified this on the basis that such flights may need to overfly the US for weather etc reasons. It may have been overturned. Same argument:

Canada - we don't want to enforce your laws in our country.
US - we don't want your airlines in our country. Your call.

A bilateral would be like:
Australia agrees with the US to see that its requirements for pax travelling from Australian jurisdictions to a USA jurisdiction complies with US regulation XYZ (eg an ESTA prior to boarding)
United States agrees with Australia to see that Australia's requirements for pax travelling from US jurisdiction to Australia complies with Australian regulations ABC (eg quarantine stuff??)

Like I said, for the US this is national security. I would be really surprised if they simply left it to foreign airlines to enforce it. If there is some sort of Australian re-inforcement, then its a whole lot more serious for the airline and why I think Virgin may have decided on a strict rule.

 

[JohnK]

I suggest looking for specific posts by OzbeachBabe and theinsider ...

TheInsider has made some very useful posts in this thread which are going to assist me when I draft the feedback letter for yesterday's experience at BNE domestic airport.

Here is a summary.

As 'the Insider' I've seen your insightful observations elsewhere about airline operations, and have appreciated them.

So, are you saying from an authoritative and personal knowledge point of view that:

* In Australia, you can be allowed to check in on the domestic sector of an international flight that is to the USA, without an ESTA? The computer will allow it?
* You can be short checked to the departure port (without an ESTA) without being checked through to the international leg?
* What is the process of re-opening a flight (who says what to whom... who has the say?) and at what point does it become 'un-openable' for late arrivals (ie pax's own fault, not an emergency etc)

Yes the computer will allow the person to be checked in, you just select that one flight basically. This is from knowledge on Sabre and Amadeus.

The ESTA is only checked on the international leg, it won't get checked on the domestic leg because it's not revelent. This includes APP checks for Australian immigration.

Usually someone with permission or authority can 'open' the flight. Even so they still have to go by their policy's with the time frame (which is - 30), but if the staff were willing to help (especially with international connections), they definitely can and has been done many times before. It just seems like they weren't willing to offer any solutions or any help at all, and it shouldn't be like that for any premium carrier QF or VA.

I'm not saying that if you arrive late for a flight you can argue the point of getting checked in. What i meant was it could be done if really needed to by the appropiate supervisors. Although in this case the OP wasn't late for check-in, he did all the right things (expect for the esta).
Also shouldn't matter if he was there 4hrs before or 40min, he is still there within the required check-in time..

You're correct by saying the esta is checked, this is because you are checking in for the flight that requires the esta (2 flights). The domestic portion doesn't need it obviously, so he could've been offered the solution of just getting the boarding pass/checking in for the bne to syd flight and then once getting into SYD going through the check-in proces again, or even asking for the onward boarding pass before getting on the first dometic flght.

I'm not saying you or anyone else is wrong about the esta, it's just there are ways around assisting someone if they really wanted to. If it was purely an international flight and had no esta then absolutely wouldn't be able to travel, but since there was a domestic flight first off then there are more solutions available.

 

[DIVIC]

We were travelling to Hawaii in February and had problems with ESTA. We did my 12 year old nephew his ESTA app about 3 weeks prior to travel and double checked the application, and it came back "Application Pending". It was approved later that evening. When they checked in at Perth to fly via Sydney, the passport number entered was wrong, so he had to redo his ESTA there and then in Perth, otherwise he could not get on the flight to Sydney to connect. Lucky they got to the airport with enough time.
on the same day, my daughter-in-law flew Qantas to Melbourne, and then had to connect to Jetstar to fly to Hawaii and was checked in at Melbourne about 1 hour before her flight.
About 15 minutes before check in closed, the check in girl approached her and told her she could not get on the flight because she didn't have a currest ESTA. She didn't know she needed a new ESTA when she got a new passport and thought nothing of it. Lucky she had her mobile and did the application only for it to saying it
was pending. Supervisor was so nice he kept checking to see if it was approved and held the check in open for 10 minutes after close. OMG it finally approved, otherwise she could not board. Meant having to fly the next day via Sydney, with change fees. The girl was really sorry, as she stuffed up and should have known at check in. Anyway, we all made it to Hawaii after such panic.

 

[dfcatch]

could potentially? but I'll go back to my other scenario - thwey "bend the rules" and re-open the flight (which may be against SOP's) get him checked in then the flight is late as a result. the people on that flight miss their connections becasause an avoidable late departure.. more people lose out and are angry at VA.



Unless you are travelling overseas, most people don't check in at the airport for domestic flights. they would have done it prior to the airport.



how do you know they didn't try? Just because they didn't get him on the flight doesn't mean they didn't look at options.



So you are talking about domestic flights against an international one where there are different rules in place.





the OP said one side of how the VA staff 'acted'. It's fair to clarify how the OP acted too..



you think they just re-open a closed flight for everybody? how late is late? 1 min? 10 mins? there is a cut off for check in.. do you think it's fair other people should be inconvenienced for a late departing flight because someone was late?



We don't know what they tried to do/not do. they might have looked but saw they had no option because there was no ESTA which the ticket required.. the next flight arrived too late for the MCT so that was out. If the system doesn't allow short checkin then what else can the check in agents do?

1/ Do you have data to back up your claim that most people don't check in at the airport?

2/ If the system doesn't allow things to be done - that is also a fail.

It's not as black and white as simply assessing what the frontline lowest rank employee is allowed to do.

As an example - most airlines have what's known as a "flat tire rule" - usually unpublished, but in many cases discretionary guidance is provided to supervisors.

That's just one example of where things are not as clear cut as you make out.

Of course - JQ is an airline where the rules are applied hard and fast and to hell with customer service initiatives - being punitive to pax who fall outside the SOPs is a method of reinforcement.

So if that's the position you take - then you're supporting JohnK's view that VA behaves like a LCC.

You really seem to be missing the entire point that premium brand businesses go out of there way to assist customers. (Or at least leave them feeling like they've been assisted as best as possible).