The 6:30am BNE-SYD is gone and I am not on it [No ESTA]

[blackcat20]

Re: BNE-SYD-LAX-BNE VA Y US$266 on Orbitz [gone]

That's an oversimplification of the issue.


IF - a big IF - the VA system allowed them the split the sectors, they could have checked him in on time.

So it's not as simple as a missed-checkin-cutoff.

Simple, but truth.

Sure, they might have been able to help. But like you said, its an *if*. We dont work for VA and dont know how possible it is. Had he arrived at check in earlier, then it would have been an entirely different story. As would turning up at check in with an ESTA. But he didnt, and the options they offered weren't suitable (due to cost). So it is what it is, and I don't think VA can wear the blame.

 

[JohnK]

Sure, people get ESTAs on the spot, no dramas. But do they then front up at check-in after its closed?

No one fronted up check-in after check-in closed. I was there in queue ~67 minutes before flight and waited and waited for people in front to rearrange luggage for 10+ minutes. Domestic flight left early. International flight left late.

I know John too, we have had many drinks together. but the question should still be asked.

You obviously don't know me because all you have been is questioning my character and whether I behaved myself and whether I am lying or not. Why would I want to lie?

However - if you were arguing that VA would have to wear the expense for a return SYD-BNE then yes, you would be included in the ignorance reference as you'd be forgetting JohnK already holds a ticket for the return to BNE.

To be clear I did not have a return SYD-BNE flight as I was coming back LAX-BNE direct but I was never offered the option to be sent to SYD and if I could not go on to LAX how I would return to BNE. Virgin are not obliged to bring me back. That is clearly for me to do.

When it became clear they were not going to put me on the 6:30am flight the next flight was not until 7:30am and they would not put me on that flight as it did not make connection. They offered to sell me seat on the 7:30am as the risk then becomes all mine. And why should I pay for a seat I was supposed to have paid for anyway?

As it turns out the international flight was delayed 19 minutes which means departed at ~10:09am that would have given me plenty of time to get from domestic arrival at ~9:05am to check-in for the flight. Dad was on hand to be at domestic when my plane landed and drive the 5 minutes to international terminal and be there by ~9:20am?

I am not sure if Qantas had an earlier flight at 7:00am which would have been plenty of time but that meant spending more of my money on a trip that was already paid for but for the brick wall at VA customer service.

 

[froggerADL]

These are good references for checking Visa requirements.
Australian Passport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Australian_citizens

British Passport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens

 

[nlagalle]

No one fronted up check-in after check-in closed. I was there in queue ~67 minutes before flight and waited and waited for people in front to rearrange luggage for 10+ minutes. Domestic flight left early. International flight left late.

so you checked in successfully before checkin closed? I'm guessing not...

Please keep to the facts and don't make up information. You were not there. Facts provided above for your reference.

Not sure what blackcat said that wasn't factual

You obviously don't know me because all you have been is questioning my character and whether I behaved myself and whether I am lying or not. Why would I want to lie?

Did i say you lied? no. I simply asked the question to provide clarification. i didn't question your character.

 

[eric2011]

Why... The man made a mistake, he stuffed up and he knows he did and courageously admitted it. After nearly 180 posts don't you think it time to call it quits. How many more times are people going to kick him in the stomach while he's down.

JohnK, this quoted post was back at post number 180. There was a possibility back then that some of us were "feeling" for you but the time has now come (post 247 or so) to give it up. You were wrong back then and sorry to say you are still wrong now. Stop before all credibility in you has gone

 

[MEL_Traveller]

These are good references for checking Visa requirements.
Australian Passport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_Australian_citizens

British Passport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requirements_for_British_citizens

Well - these are a good start - but already out of date China allows 144 hour transit without visa in selected cities.

 

[nlagalle]

Denied boarding/refused check in is same same to me. VA stuffed up big time.

Denied boarding and denied check in are two totally separate things. If you had a boarding pass in your hand you could say you were denied boarding but you didn't get past check in.

VA did not "stuff up big time". The stuff up was no ESTA. That isn't VA's fault. you are blaming them for your mistake. That is not admitting your error.

 

[JohnK]

That's right - if one is to accept it was a domestic sector or a required flight sector. Other than for the purpose of catching the flight to LAX, you had no reason to be in SYD and VA had no obligation to put you there. Had the 0630 been cancelled for whatever reason, VA would have put you on the non-stop BNE-LAX and you couldn't have claimed compensation for missing the BNE-SYD leg.

In that sense, your 'destination' could be considered LAX, not SYD. Hence ESTA required at check-in (as per 'refusal of carriage').

For some reason I had you arriving at check-in 30 minutes later than you actually did (I thought you got there just before 6 rather than 5.23).

You may well be right but it is not that clear on the VA website and there have been accounts of different treatment for others.

Maybe VA could have gone the extra mile to help you - if it was an option.

Were VA contractually obliged to do so? I don't know. I think a lot could turn on how they see the BNE-SYD sector (ie stand alone or part of the complete international itinerary).

Everyone sees things differently. This would not have happened on Qantas? I don't know. I know that I would have got much better customer service. And let's not forget this is not the first time either.

In my opinion VA staff could have done more at very little cost to VA and this thread would not have existed.

Worth writing a letter to get their side of it.

Of that you can be assured.

And for those that don't want to participate in the discussion please don't. There are some very helpful people who are taking the time to assist and I appreciate their assistance. I don't care about spoiling my credibility. The people that care about my credibility have made their positions clear in this thread and in private.

 

[nlagalle]

In my opinion VA staff could have done more at very little cost to VA and this thread would not have existed.

So what could they have done? I'd like to know what you think they could have done to fix what was your mistake.

 

[JohnK]

So what could they have done? I'd like to know what you think they could have done to fix what was your mistake.

Print a boarding pass for the BNE-SYD flight at ~5:40am. Do not check me in for international flight and put a note in booking that ESTA must be completed before international flight.

I would have boarded that flight but ~6:10am everything would have been Ok and they would have seen this on their computer system. By the time I arrive at SYD domestic all would have been OK.

It really is that simple. It cannot be any simpler.

Any other conversation about laying all the blame on me is pointless. VA staff could have provided very easy solution as mentioned above when it became clear I did not have ESTA. They chose not to assist and even if I am 101% in the wrong I still see this as a bad thing for VA and I cannot trust VA staff to provide adequate customer service during difficult times. Why are you focusing on the ESTA and ignoring the lack of customer service?

 

[nlagalle]

Print a boarding pass for the BNE-SYD flight at ~5:40am. Do not check me in for international flight and put a note in booking that ESTA must be completed before international flight.

I would have boarded that flight but ~6:10am everything would have been Ok and they would have seen this on their computer system. By the time I arrive at SYD domestic all would have been OK.

It really is that simple. I cannot be any simpler.

But.. we don't know that the system allows that.. Although one person says maybe it can, others have said it may not. So if a system can't split the booking and give you the domestic flight how do you expect them to do it? And I say that as I know the same thing has happened before so I am betting it won't allow them to short check you to SYD.

You are making an assumption on something you don't know the answer to. Just because you think they should do it that way, doesn't mean they are able to either.

And what if they came back to you and said sorry we can't short check you? which is essentially what that ended up telling you, would you still say they were to blame?

 

[boomy]

yes it is.. the ESTA wasn't done prior so he missed his flights. You cannot disagree that if he had his ESTA he would have been on the flight. and if you get caught in traffic getting to the airport you'd still miss the flight too. Tell me what could VA do if the pax arrived with no ESTA???

From what I've read the OP blames VA for not helping to check-in during or after completing ESTA. He is not blaming VA for forgetting to apply in the first place.
VA could potentially check in just for the Dom sector before completing ESTA or open the flight 10 min after check in closed.

The reason I was talking about getting caught in traffic is something that happened to me more than once and every time I still made it to the flights checking in late. As you clearly said, if it was on VA I would miss those flights. It shows perfectly how VA's customer service stacks up compared to others, more serious airlines.

VA couldn't treat the OP better and get out of their way to put him on that flight. If, after doing all they couldn't do it then next step would be to organise phone call with customer service, or even do it at the airport, to reach some sort of financial arrangement.

I remember once being late to QF Dom flight ex PER, really late, arrived after takeoff. It was red-e-deal ticket and the agent looked at it, made a phone call and eventually asked me to just pay change fee, no difference fee which would be very high. That's an example of thinking outside the box, making both the frustrated customer and the airline happy.

I know John too, we have had many drinks together. but the question should still be asked.

I don't see the point asking a question which only the OP and the check in agent know the answer to.

Do they? do they have the power/ authority to override a closed flight? what if they did and the flight left late and then other people missed connections because of it?

I'm asking the same question, do they have authority or they are just mindless robots? Is VA serious airline or just another LCC?

Let's imagine pax coming late to check in with an emergency and the agent gives them blank look saying: "Sorry, computer says no. Pay change fee and take the next flight." Technically playing by the rules but does it seem logical to you?

According to the OP they didn't do much to even try and help, he was not about to miss just a Dom flight to SYD but the whole trip to USA and in the end the flight ends up leaving early! Give me a break...
If you think this is the way an airline should treat their status pax then go ahead, keep defending them and put all the blame at the OP.

 

[drron]

But.. we don't know that the system allows that.. Although one person says maybe it can, others have said it may not. So if a system can't split the booking and give you the domestic flight how do you expect them to do it? And I say that as I know the same thing has happened before so I am betting it won't allow them to short check you to SYD.

You are making an assumption on something you don't know the answer to. Just because you think they should do it that way, doesn't mean they are able to either.

And what if they came back to you and said sorry we can't short check you? which is essentially what that ended up telling you, would you still say they were to blame?

Though we do have 2 members who I believe do have knowledge of the QF systems that on QF not having an ESTA need not result in not flying that day.
If VA systems don't let that happen then JohnKs statement that VA act like a LCC has an element of truth.
There are 2 problems here-no ESTA which JohnK has taken the blame for.

But second is did VA try to rectify that.As I said there is evidence that QF does try.So,although I would not use the word blame,VA has failed in customer satisfaction.

 

[JohnK]

But.. we don't know that the system allows that.. Although one person says maybe it can, others have said it may not. So if a system can't split the booking and give you the domestic flight how do you expect them to do it? And I say that as I know the same thing has happened before so I am betting it won't allow them to short check you to SYD.

You are making an assumption on something you don't know the answer to. Just because you think they should do it that way, doesn't mean they are able to either.

And what if they came back to you and said sorry we can't short check you? which is essentially what that ended up telling you, would you still say they were to blame?

I know the answer already. It is in this thread.

- CBR-SYD-LAX and ESTA was not checked in CBR but was queried in SYD 1 hour before LAX flight due to depart.
- CBR-MEL-AUH with 3.5 hour transit in MEL and short checked through to MEL.

My fault was I did not have ESTA for a ~9:50am international SYD-LAX flight. That should not have been relevant at ~5:40am in BNE for a BNE-SYD flight. Had plenty of time to complete ESTA which was complete at ~6:10am anyway.

So yes I take full blame for causing the original ESTA issue. VA has to take some of the blame for not providing adequate customer service.

And as drron mentions if VA are not able to split these bookings in this situation then they are truly a LCC because this is how a LCC behaves not a full service carrier.

 

[nlagalle]

From what I've read the OP blames VA for not helping to check-in during or after completing ESTA. He is not blaming VA for forgetting to apply in the first place.
VA could potentially check in just for the Dom sector before completing ESTA or open the flight 10 min after check in closed.

could potentially? but I'll go back to my other scenario - thwey "bend the rules" and re-open the flight (which may be against SOP's) get him checked in then the flight is late as a result. the people on that flight miss their connections becasause an avoidable late departure.. more people lose out and are angry at VA.

The reason I was talking about getting caught in traffic is something that happened to me more than once and every time I still made it to the flights checking in late. As you clearly said, if it was on VA I would miss those flights. It shows perfectly how VA's customer service stacks up compared to others, more serious airlines.

Unless you are travelling overseas, most people don't check in at the airport for domestic flights. they would have done it prior to the airport.

VA couldn't treat the OP better and get out of their way to put him on that flight. If, after doing all they couldn't do it then next step would be to organise phone call with customer service, or even do it at the airport, to reach some sort of financial arrangement.

how do you know they didn't try? Just because they didn't get him on the flight doesn't mean they didn't look at options.

I remember once being late to QF Dom flight ex PER, really late, arrived after takeoff. It was red-e-deal ticket and the agent looked at it, made a phone call and eventually asked me to just pay change fee, no difference fee which would be very high. Thanks an example of thinking outside the box, making both the frustrated customer and the airline happy.

So you are talking about domestic flights against an international one where there are different rules in place.

I don't see the point asking a question which only the OP and the check in agent know the answer to.

the OP said one side of how the VA staff 'acted'. It's fair to clarify how the OP acted too..

I'm asking the same question, do they have authority or they are just mindless robots? Is VA serious airline or just another LCC?

Let's imagine pax coming late to check in with an emergency and the agent gives them blank look saying: "Sorry, computer says no. Pay change fee and take the next flight." Technically playing by the rules but does it seem logical to you?

you think they just re-open a closed flight for everybody? how late is late? 1 min? 10 mins? there is a cut off for check in.. do you think it's fair other people should be inconvenienced for a late departing flight because someone was late?

According to the OP they didn't do much to even try and help, he was not about to miss just a Dom flight to SYD but the whole trip to USA and in the end the flight ends up leaving early! Give me a break...
If you think this is the way an airline should treat their status pax then go ahead, keep defending them and put all the blame at the OP.

We don't know what they tried to do/not do. they might have looked but saw they had no option because there was no ESTA which the ticket required.. the next flight arrived too late for the MCT so that was out. If the system doesn't allow short checkin then what else can the check in agents do?

 

[nlagalle]

I know the answer already. It is in this thread.

- CBR-SYD-LAX and ESTA was not checked in CBR but was queried in SYD 1 hour before LAX flight due to depart.
- CBR-MEL-AUH with 3.5 hour transit in MEL and short checked through to MEL.

and as pointed out there could have been other circumstances that were different to yours.

My fault was I did not have ESTA for a ~9:50am international SYD-LAX flight. That should not have been relevant at ~5:40am in BNE for a BNE-SYD flight. Had plenty of time to complete ESTA which was complete at ~6:10am anyway.

no John, you didn't have an ESTA for your flight that left at 6.30am. had you been on separate tickets then the issue would have been uncovered in Syd (which you might have missed that flight too).

So yes I take full blame for causing the original ESTA issue. VA has to take some of the blame for not providing adequate customer service.

And as drron mentions if VA are not able to split these bookings in this situation then they are truly a LCC because this is how a LCC behaves not a full service carrier.

yes and the ESTA issue is what caused the problems. you say they didn't provide "adequate" customer service, however it seems to me that even if they did try everything and failed you'd still say they didn't do enough

And splitting a ticket at the airport doesn't define a LCC or a FSC.. Whilst I am no VA fan myself, I hardly think they are to blame here.

 

[kamchatsky]

Wow. What a thread.

I don’t know JohnK at all but given his extensive travel experience I was surprised he didn’t get ESTA organised earlier.


But then I was also surprised that VA didn’t try to get JohnK to SYD, given he is Gold member. I would have expected that they at least try to do so after he did get his ESTA. Yes the check-in is closed but would have thought they would try to help him get on-board for the flight if they can, especially it is carry-on only anyway.


That is not what I know of the VA culture. In my experience, VA has been very accommodating and always try to help. That's why I travel on VA on most domestic flights.


Maybe, and just maybe, VA losing so much cash means they have to do everything to get into profit, and some of the rules becomes much more enforced, rather than relaxed. In this case, JohnK have the rules enforced on him. Maybe this is the future of VA as they try to ensure that they are profitable and stop keep asking their shareholder for more money.

 

[JohnK]

yes and the ESTA issue is what caused the problems. you say they didn't provide "adequate" customer service, however it seems to me that even if they did try everything and failed you'd still say they didn't do enough

And splitting a ticket at the airport doesn't define a LCC or a FSC.. Whilst I am no VA fan myself, I hardly think they are to blame here.

You are entitled to have that opinion. I don't and we are not likely to agree here so no point carrying on back and forth. You are not going to achieve anything by responding to everyone of my posts.

I now have an ESTA that is valid 2 years right? And I would like an explanation from VA customer relations on why they think I was refused check in. I am hoping the staff on duty at the time have filed some report? Wait and see.

 

[nlagalle]

I now have an ESTA that is valid 2 years right? And I would like an explanation from VA customer relations on why they think I was refused check in. I am hoping the staff on duty at the time have filed some report? Wait and see.

You have a ESTA now, but did you have it before check in closed? They probably added the note that you didn't hence you were denied check in. given your timeline of events if they have notated it in the system it won't look to favourable for you.

 

[RooFlyer]

I'll be honest and admit that I didn't read 200 posts. I read enough in the first few pages on the mobile app (**** app that it is).

No I wasn't referring to you Rooflyer - I was referring to several comments in the first few pages made (mostly) by people I've never heard of, and that clearly have been here for less than 5 mins.

I'm familiar enough with you that you weren't included in that comment.

<snip>.

It's OK, I didn't think you were . Just hoping you might share some insights. :mrgreen: