The COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Australia has begun

Booked in to get AZ Monday next week at my regular GP. A short walk from the office.

They have hundreds of doses in the fridge. As they need to give 10(?) doses at a time that limits how much they can give.

The cancellations from over 50s would have helped to increase supplies
 
Booked in to get AZ Monday next week at my regular GP. A short walk from the office.

They have hundreds of doses in the fridge. As they need to give 10(?) doses at a time that limits how much they can give.

The cancellations from over 50s would have helped to increase supplies

I was at my GP's yesterday to get some stitches removed.

The nurse attending me also assists with vaccinations including Covid ones and she indicated that they yes that had had many older patients cancel in recent times, but yesterday they had a surge in younger patients wanting the AZ vaccination.
 
@kangarooflyer88

It seems to me that ATAGI has been on a power trip ever since the COVID vaccines came to market. They assumed that a policy of eliminating all possible risks and side-effects from the vaccine was more important than getting the vaccines into as many Aussies arms as possible given the non-existence of COVID in the country. However, what these think tanks like the ATAGI and AMA fail to take into account is the emotional trauma the lockdown Australia has been in since March 2020 has had on all of us. Let's face it, the country was locked down since March 2020, sure shops have remained largely open, but when it comes to travelling domestically or internationally that has been all off the cards for many. Some of us have not seen our relatives in several years right now and the way things are going with the vaccine roll out it may be several more years before this lockdown ends. They also assumed (incorrectly) that we will always be staying at this COVID-zero state when as we've seen in the past several weeks that's frankly not a reality be it in Melbourne or Perth, Sydney or Brisbane, Darwin or Gold Coast. Why is it virtually every other country in the world has accepted AstraZeneca (with few provisos), yet we're still dinking around trying to figure out how to administer vaccines?

I am perplexed by ATAGI's sudden appearance in the spotlight. Its terms of reference do not contemplate such a public facing role. It is a mere technical adviser to the Minister for Health. In particular, ATAGI's terms of reference do not contemplate announcements to the public. The correct process, as a matter of law and convention, is that the advisor should advise the Minister of the Crown, the executive should consider the advice and develop policy, and then the executive should engage with the public.

The Australian vaccination programme has been a dismal failure, for several reasons. First, and this is one where I don't necessarily lay all of the blame at the government's feet (but nevertheless it appears that it has suffered from an appalling lack of thinking on these matters), the strategy of the eggs in not enough baskets was foolish. Having a local vaccine manufacturing capability is great, but building multiple redundancies into any widescale logistics programme is sensible. There was nothing stopping Australia from taking the same position as did Canada and ordering vaccines from multiple manufacturers. The Australian government is a monopsony purchaser of pharmaceuticals that are part of the PBS, and commands significant purchasing power with global pharmacos.

Secondly, using GPs as a primary vaccine administration route was profoundly idiotic. A mass vaccination campaign requires a mass logistics programme. Mass vaccination centres, staffed by every available medical (doctors, nurse practitioners and nurses) and paramedical (pharmacists, med and nursing students, paramedics) professional, current and retired, anyone who is capable of delivering an IM injection. Setting up legal structures to provide indemnities etc are the mere strokes of parliamentary pens and are not material impediments.

Thirdly, a better booking and record keeping system needed to be developed and rolled out. Make it super easy for everyone to book their appointment - web, telephone, in person.

Fourthly, if the people don't come to you, go to the people. Mobile immunisation vans sent off to remote communities, etc etc.

And before anyone says "it can't be done", it has been done - by Canada. A country comparable to Australia in foundational structures, wealth, population size (greater than Australia, in fact), public health system and issues such as remote communities.

The handling of AZ was appalling (and I've said it before I think, so was Canada's). The clotting issue has not been given any sort of proportion or sufficient contextual explanation, particularly when you have this situation in play (see: British Medical Journal Article):

CVST rate.jpg

At first I could understand why Australia went into a lockdown the way it did, it protected communities and businesses. But one has to wonder at some point, are these measures of keeping the lockdown whilst dragging one's heels when it comes to vaccination actually starting to hurt businesses? When is enough, enough for Qantas? Have they not suffered enough having lost well over a year of international flights? What about the hoteliers, tour operators, and restaurants that could count on tourists landing in Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne, and Brisbane like clockwork in January?

I agree completely. In the early days it was sensible. But the problem was no thought to the medium to longer term future was given. No thought was given to how to inform people that things would not and could not stay like that forever. The pandemic was used for ulterior purposes. They may have been successful purposes, but it is disgusting that happened.

Frankly, I think it is high time we regulate how the AMA and ATAGI communicate with the public. Just as you wouldn't sell a packet of cigarettes without warning labels cautioning you on the health effects of the product, nor should we allow these "experts" to spew their beliefs without a disclosure that what they are saying are opinions and should not be construed as medical advice. Many Aussies have incorrectly assumed that what the AMA and ATAGI say is gospel and must be followed like a hard and fast rule. In reality, it is one expert's feelings on a subject.

Your Trusty,

KangarooFlyer88

Regulating communication by the AMA with the public falls into the difficult basket. As a private association, so long as its communications are not otherwise prohibited by the laws of the land (defamation, restrictions on pharmaceutical and medical services advertising, anti-discrimination and anti-vilification laws, etc), it can say what it likes.

ATAGI is different. As a government established advisory group, the government can define what it says to whom. As I mentioned, its terms of reference do not contemplate a public facing role. I've attached them so folks can see for themselves that the terms of reference are quite limited indeed.
 

Attachments

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My GP did say that he could see some other young people had booked in for it as well. Monday 5th was the earliest I could see available Monday night anyway. I'll now need to think about going into e.g. Jeff's Shed and seeing if I can get it earlier there somehow or not.
 
So people who get TTS are somehow more important than other people?

Stop twisting what was said.

There should be zero issue with those most at risk from AZ induced TTS waiting for an MRNA vaccine (these are orders on their way). There is nothing wrong with chosing the best vaccine for your situation. Pfizer remains the recommended vaccine for under 60s, you may not like this fact, but it is.

Taking Pfizer instead of AZ will in no way impact the number of flu cases now or in the future. People need to get a flu vaccine if they are at risk from Flu or work with those who are this already happens. Zero reason that flu and Covid need to be lumped together into a single statistic.

The borders aren't opening until vaccination rates are over 80% if you believe Gladys, who know what the Feds or other states will insist on since they haven't stated a target.

Under 60s will have been offered Pfizer/Modena before the borders open up so do not need to risk TTS now. If you want to choose to play russian roulette go ahead, just stop painting those who choose to follow the recommendations / health advice as heartless and death causing its just plain wrong.
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Thankfully Gladys is being sensible in her address right now referencing health advice and indicating under 60s are fine to wait for Pfizer and should only consider AZ with advice from their GP (if they have one).
 
Of course there is, we have it with the current vaccines. After the trials, other countries like UK and US gave emergency approvals and started using Pfizer, Moderna, AZ etc months before we did in Australia. We got the benefit of seeing when used in the real world across a much broader set of ethnicities etc how it performed vs what the trials showed.

You have twisted a comment about observing real world usage in other jurisdictions with an approval process that I never mentioned. My post was about your average person, not regulators.

Virtually no one wants to be the guinea pig / first person to take a a new drug/vaccine that hasn't been in wide use unless they are absolutely desperate i.e. dying.

The average person will never be the "guinea pig / first person" to take a new pharmaceutical product because of the way that the marketing approvals process works and what you call "wide use" is completely irrelevant to that process until the product is on the market and the subject of pharmacovigilance studies. Regulated pharmaceutical products do not come to market without having undergone Phase I, II and III clinical trials and then assessment by the regulators. What you have posited is impossible and does not exist in the real world.

It seems to me that you do not understand the path the marketing approvals process took for every pharmaceutical product you have taken. Is that going to dissuade you from taking pharmaceutical products in the future? It certainly does not dissuade "the average person".

It is pure happenstance that the Covid vaccines were first administered elsewhere. And, as it turns out, they've been performing exactly as the outcome of the huge (and as I explained above, they were huge in comparison to virtually all other pharmaceutical products on the market) clinical trials established. Each of the AZ, Pfizer, Moderna and J&J/Janssen vaccines is safe and effective, greatly reduces hospitalisations and deaths, reduces transmissions and the severity of illness if contracted. Serious adverse events have been reported for each of the vaccines in Phase IV / pharmacovigilance, which is no different whatsoever for every pharmaceutical product you've ever taken.
 
Gladys just summed things up perfectly at the NSW Presser.

If you are under 40 have a conversation with your GP.

Nice to see some sanity compared to QLD.

‘Go and see a GP to get AZ. I had it and I’m 50.’

Thanks NSW for pouring oil on the water :)

Also hilarious comment re QLD: stop complaining and just get on with it.
 
Secondly, using GPs as a primary vaccine administration route was profoundly idiotic. A mass vaccination campaign requires a mass logistics programme. Mass vaccination centres

Agreed (but you get shot down if you say that here). The popularity and efficiency of the state run mass vaccination is the model that should have been used form the start.
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Gladys just summed things up perfectly at the NSW Presser.

If you are under 40 have a conversation with your GP (Can actually be any GP)

You left off what she said immediately before that (context is everything) - she stressed health advice is for under 60s to get Pfizer and she recommends following the health advice.

And Dr Chant now referencing ATAGI re Pfizer being recommended, and why NSW prefers Pfizer for its state run centers and how vital it is for a lengthy discussion with "your" GP (not any GP) if younger people want to choose AZ.
 
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My GP did say that he could see some other young people had booked in for it as well. Monday 5th was the earliest I could see available Monday night anyway. I'll now need to think about going into e.g. Jeff's Shed and seeing if I can get it earlier there somehow or not.

All of our NSW clinics we supply have reported are booked solid for rest of the week now, we just had a call with them. And same as you have experienced in VIC, it’s the under 40’s booking in en masse.
 
Booked in to get AZ Monday next week at my regular GP. A short walk from the office.

They have hundreds of doses in the fridge. As they need to give 10(?) doses at a time that limits how much they can give.

The cancellations from over 50s would have helped to increase supplies
Well done. Phew.
 
he average person will never be the "guinea pig / first person" to take a new pharmaceutical product

Again you are arguing something that was not said, i never said drugs and vaccines were not tested and approved before being made available to Joe Public. But Joe Public will still feel like a guinea pig if amongst the first members of the general public to be asked to take something new, and the issues with AZ have made people more hesitant about being the first.

Being able to reference that UK or US (or another country with similar health facilities to Australia) have been using a new vaccine widely and successfully for a decent period of time before us will give more confidence and assurance to people. I dont know why you cant understand that?
 
Agreed (but you get shot down if you say that here). The popularity and efficiency of the state run mass vaccination is the model that should have been used form the start.
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You left off what she said immediately before that (context is everything) - she stressed health advice is for under 60s to get Pfizer and she recommends following the health advice.

And Dr Chant now referencing ATAGI re Pfizer being recommended, and why NSW prefers Pfizer for its state run centers and how vital it is for a lengthy discussion with "your" GP (not any GP) if younger people want to choose AZ.
She also said everybody has unique circumstances and that’s why the GP needs to explain the risks and benefits.

At the end of the day it’s a personal decision and it’s about time for the politics to be removed from the equation.
 
She also said everybody has unique circumstances and that’s why the GP needs to explain the risks and benefits.

But that was only for AZ for under 60s.

Dr Chant is not a politician, she said NSW health are satisfied with the safety of Pfizer for young people to distribute via state centres but not for AZ which needs that in-depth consult.

She is not as some are claiming here promoting AZ for under 60s.
 
The constraint on vaccinations in Australia is not now the channels, it is :
  • The number of doses available
  • The willingness of people to get vaccinated - some eligible people are not presenting for either vaccine
There is at present adequate delivery channels. But when supply increases later in the year and particularly in the last quarter, it is good to note that pharmacies will also be increasingly added to the mix of channels (Note that some pharmacies are already vaccinating).

Mobile distribution is also already being used in Australia where temporary pop-ups sites are deployed from time to time at various locations including to get the vulnerable or those living in very remote locations vaccinated..
 
But that was only for AZ for under 60s.

Dr Chant is not a politician, she said NSW health are satisfied with the safety of Pfizer for young people to distribute via state centres but not for AZ which needs that in-depth consult.

She is not as some are claiming here promoting AZ for under 60s.
That's what I was talking about.

The ATAGI advice is crystal clear - but often gets omitted

The COVID-19 AstraZeneca vaccine can be used in adults aged under 60 years where the benefits clearly outweigh the risk for that individual and the person has made an informed decision based on an understanding of the risks and benefits.

That does not mean somebody under 60 wanting AZ is going against the health advice.
 
She also said everybody has unique circumstances and that’s why the GP needs to explain the risks and benefits.

At the end of the day it’s a personal decision and it’s about time for the politics to be removed from the equation.

100%. And now the option is available to them people can make an informed decision devoid of politics (if they can get past the wall of fearmongering, misinformation and anti vaxxer propaganda!)

People seem to forget that the product is approved and indicated for use. But that doesn’t suit their arguments ;)
 
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hat does not mean somebody under 60 wanting AZ is going against the health advice.

It also does not mean ATAGI are recommending or advising AZ for under 60s, they are clear the recommended vaccine is Pfizer.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is advised.

The Government doesn't don't stop idiots from buying cigarettes but that doesnt mean they recommend anyone smoke.
 
It also does not mean ATAGI are recommending or advising AZ for under 60s, they are clear the recommended vaccine is Pfizer.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is advised.

The Government doesn't don't stop idiots from buying cigarettes but that doesnt mean they recommend anyone smoke.

I would use "default" instead of "clear". They don't use the word clear at all, they use the word "preferred". It's dangerous to compare getting a lifesaving vaccine with smoking.

It is not as universal as you claim, for some the benefits will outweigh the risk (especially considering the likely wait for Pfizer and where that person lives). Kerry Chant said exactly this and was only saying NSW Health don't give it because they're not equipped to have the conversation. At no point did they recommend against, only quoting the ATAGI advice.
 

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