The COVID-19 vaccine rollout in Australia has begun

[lovetravellingoz]

It's been reported quite a lot both here and overseas that Delta variant seems to be hitting the younger more. Not sure if this is directly related to the virus mutation or the fact that the younger tend to be the cohort which is vaccinated least.

I would tend to think it is a combination of your last point on being vaccinated the least, that the virus does transmit more readily plus other factors such that younger people tend to be in close contact more regularly with other people:

• they socialise more
• they are more likely to be in jobs that require proximity to other people
• more likely to live in share housing

 

[Flying mermaid]

Another day of good numbers 165,475 for the day and rolling week total of 922,081 - both records I think. A million a week starting to look doable.

 

[drron]

But - and this a question, I don't pretend to know the answer - where do you draw the line? The boarders aren't in a bubble only with other boarders in their year group. They will mix in class with the day students, the day students will go home to their families, then their parents and siblings and the nanny will mix with colleagues, friends, people in the supermarket, etc, etc, all of whom could potentially lead to Covid getting into the school. How many of those do you vaccinate to protect Aboriginal boarders? If the number of Aboriginal students is as low as suggested, at the very least you are using an awful lot of doses of vaccines to protect very few people.

The other boarders would be close contacts whereas the day boys would be casual contacts hence a difference in how they should be treated.There is a case for vaccinating close contacts of high risk individuals but it would not be essential for casual contacts.

When our son was at boarding school it was not common for boarders to spend weekends at day boys homes.Much more common for parents of country boarders to come down for a weekend and take their sons plus friends out.
The country boarders were much more likely to go and stay with another country boarder on long weekends or holidays.Day boys also often went to stay with a country boarders family.

Now if a boarder went and stayed with a day boy's family it would only change what might be done if the boarder was one of the indigenous boarders.The others would be low risk.

 

[Lynda2475]

the day boys would be casual contacts hence a difference in how they should be treated.

How so? If a boarder sits next to day pupil in class for all of the school day and then plays after school sport with the day pupils then surely that is close contact? The borders don't have separate classes, play on separate teams etc. to the day pupils.

It is also mandatory for most to represent the school in a Saturday sport , so the boarders all either play sport against other schools in Sydney each week.

Further at Joeys they have two types of boarders (blue text direct from the school website):

* Weekly boarders head home to their families after sport on Saturdays, returning either Sunday evening or Monday morning - these mostly come from greater Sydney/Wollongong/Hunter region and account for 60% of boarders.

* Full boarders are allowed Sunday leave each week with their parents or other approved adults and overnight weekend leave, starting once Saturday sporting commitments are finished, until 8pm on Sundays (special permission required if it is not with their parents). Represent 40% of boarders and come from Rural, Regional and overseas.

With their parents’ approval, full boarders are also allowed overnight Saturday leave to stay with other adult relatives and family friends – and with the families of their fellow Joeys students. The warmth, hospitality and care shown to full-boarding country and overseas students by city families – and vice versa during holidays – has become a hallmark of the close Joeys community, forging family connections and friendships that endure long after boys have left the College.

These boarders have frequent interactions with contacts out side those they board with; and it is indeed common at Joeys (maybe not other boarding schools) for Full Boarders to spend weekends with day student and/or weekly boarders families, as I explained earlier.

The mistake was made, and the boarders got lucky that the loophole was exploited, but the reality is only those indigenous students (4% of enrolments) were eligible.

If a matter of close contacts then a much larger pool of students need to be vaccinated, and I think we can all agree these young men are less at risk of serious illness from Covid than the 50-59s and front line workers wo are eligible.

 

[RAM]

Data point - NSW GPs administering Pfizer.

Allowed 9 doses per week per doctor registered to a practise. In reality given 10 doses and allowance of 1 dose spoiled/wasted (talkative practise manager).

This inner city practise (medical centre) appeared on the NSW booking engine mid last week. I incorrectly assumed it was only for AZ at that time - turns out I was wrong, they'd opened up for bookings. Well, up to a point.

First doses of Pfizer to arrive will come on Wednesday July 14th. Booked out to late July as of today.

BUT:

• will not make a booking for Pfizer vaccine until after you come for a consultation with a GP first, once that done then, and only then will they allow you to book your 1st appointment for Pfizer.
• at that time you are unable to book your 2nd appointment (reason: in case you don't turn up for your first)

So I asked why they required a pre-booking consultation (bulk-billed) to be able to book as the NSW Govt booking system only requires to answer a series of questions before allowing a booking to be made.

"That is how our GPs want to organise it."

I questioned whether the procedure was being mixed-up with what is required for an under 60yr old wanting AZ? No. Both vaccines require a pre-booking consultation, but don't worry as it is bulk-billed so you do not pay anything. I queried this several times, politely.

Finally, I asked if they could double-check & was put on to the practise manager. Several more 'this is how we do it' etc. Then they came back to say that they would make an exception and allow me not to have a pre-booking consultation but would have to answer about a dozen questions on a form when I came in for the vaccination.

Asked if I could make the 2nd booking now? No, only after the vaccination has been completed & you have suffered no adverse reaction in the following 30 minutes.

Hmmm.

Has anyone heard of or had to have a pre-booking consultation requirement for Pfizer?

 

[drron]

In High Schools boarding or not it is unusual to sit beside the same person all the time.My grandkids certainly don't and they are now all day students at a private school.
And how many are from the Hunter and Wollongong and the outer ( really regional ) areas of Greater Sydney.Our son was from the Hunter at the time of his boarding school attendance.He mixed much,much more with the country boarders than Sydney based pupils.

I just wonder how much practical experience you have with private schools particularly those with boarders.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

But - and this a question, I don't pretend to know the answer - where do you draw the line? The boarders aren't in a bubble only with other boarders in their year group. They will mix in class with the day students, the day students will go home to their families, then their parents and siblings and the nanny will mix with colleagues, friends, people in the supermarket, etc, etc, all of whom could potentially lead to Covid getting into the school. How many of those do you vaccinate to protect Aboriginal boarders? If the number of Aboriginal students is as low as suggested, at the very least you are using an awful lot of doses of vaccines to protect very few people.

The vaccine is to prevent a person who becomes infected from becoming seriously ill (including death), and to on average reduce symptoms for all.

It is not to prevent transmission. If it does, or at least makes transmission less likely, that is a welcome bonus.

So to answer your question: where do you draw the line?

• You draw it in this case at the indigenous students.

And with this cohort being so young, only moreseo.

 

[HappyFlyerFamily]

But - and this a question, I don't pretend to know the answer - where do you draw the line? The boarders aren't in a bubble only with other boarders in their year group. They will mix in class with the day students, the day students will go home to their families, then their parents and siblings and the nanny will mix with colleagues, friends, people in the supermarket, etc, etc, all of whom could potentially lead to Covid getting into the school. How many of those do you vaccinate to protect Aboriginal boarders? If the number of Aboriginal students is as low as suggested, at the very least you are using an awful lot of doses of vaccines to protect very few people.

The line is a human construct and as such can be drawn anywhere. I believe in initial drafts of the vaccine rollout - the aged care residents and indigenous were high on the priority list - being more likely to die. Shielding added quarantine workers (shielding for the rest of general community), aged care workers (shielding for aged care residents), and healthcare worker (higher chance of interaction with covid and other patients - also shielding other patients).....then at an implementation level household members thereof were added.

Given household members are considered part of shielding it’s understandable that boarders could be considered part of a “household” and thus part of shielding.

Yes there’s no assurance of reduced transmission via shielding but it’s a bonus that was planned/hoped for.

 

[Lynda2475]

sit beside the same person all the time

True but how long do you need to be that close to be deemed a close contact? NSW health deem people who spend more than 15 minutes in close proximity with a positive person a close contact and most private schools have periods/classes that go for 40-50 minutes, so easily each that benchmark.

I just wonder how much practical experience you have with private schools particularly those with boarders.

A reasonable amount myself due to be very familiar with Joey's plus members of my family currently teach in Sydney private schools that have boarders.

I went to private independent girls school in Sydney and whilst I was a day student in those years regularly interacted with Joey's students (and many other private schools that also had borders) through competing in debating and mock trial, attending school dances, plays/performance and being dragged to the odd rugby match hosted at Joey's because my bestie at the time was dating a Joey's border on the team.

There were also the many weekends I spent at my friend Liz's house whose brothers were Joey's day pupils but who hosted boarders in their home after football/cricket on Saturdays so they could enjoy a home cooked meal. I cant recall a single weekend I spent at her house during school term when there weren't one or more Joey's boarders also staying the night, Liz's Mum used to make her brothers invite boarders so they had a choice not to be stuck on campus.

I remain friends with a few of those Joey's boys (well men now) as i do with classmates whose brothers/husbands/fathers also went there. Some of then now have sons who attend Joeys and/or are enrolled to go there when old enough.

Joeys encourages the boys to mix whether they are a day student or boarder, friendships are not made solely along a city/country divide Whilst some of the weekly boarders are from Wollongong, the Hunter and Central costs most are actually from the Sydney suburbs. I knew a guy who boarded at Joey's who parents lived at Strathfield (a 20 min drive away) but he wanted to board because his father had.

I understand you are speaking from your sons experience, but suspect he did not attend Joeys since you are so quick to dismiss the interactions I have witnessed many times and the common practice of there boarders regularly spending weekends with families of other students despite the website even stating this.

 

[Lynda2475]

Yes there’s no assurance of reduced transmission via shielding but it’s a bonus that was planned/hoped for.

The shielding argument doesn't really stack up very well in this specific case, because Joey's isn't a remote country boarding school where students are relatively isolated from others.

Its 10km from the CBD, half the form are day students who commute from all over Sydney, the next biggest group are weekly boarders who go home every weekend. So majority of the form (not to mention the teachers) have close contact with countless people in Sydney. The full time boarders can not avoid exposure to people who have been in the community.

The indigenous students were eligible, the others got lucky their school exploited a mistake.

 

[Princess Fiona]

And it is usual practice for many borders to be able to stay at the homes of day students on weekends if invited.

But - and this a question, I don't pretend to know the answer - where do you draw the line? The boarders aren't in a bubble only with other boarders in their year group. They will mix in class with the day students, the day students will go home to their families, then their parents and siblings and the nanny will mix with colleagues, friends, people in the supermarket, etc, etc, all of whom could potentially lead to Covid getting into the school. How many of those do you vaccinate to protect Aboriginal boarders? If the number of Aboriginal students is as low as suggested, at the very least you are using an awful lot of doses of vaccines to protect very few people.

During the initial lockdown period and then return to face-to-face school attendance boarding school was operating very, very differently from normal.
Year groups were in a bubble with no mixing allowed.
They were also not allowed to leave the boarding school at all on any kind of weekend or evening trips.
There is an extensive set of guidelines developed in conjunction with NSW health for various levels of alert during the pandemic.
I assume these exist in other states too.
Boarding in Covid-19 2020 was very far from normal and I assume that’s going to be the case when the NSW students return.

We have yet to receive the updated info from my daughters’ school.

 

[louie-m]

The vaccine is to prevent a person who becomes infected from becoming seriously ill (including death), and to on average reduce symptoms for all.

It is not to prevent transmission. If it does, or at least makes transmission less likely, that is a welcome bonus.

So to answer your question: where do you draw the line?

• You draw it in this case at the indigenous students.

And with this cohort being so young, only moreseo.

I don't disagree with you, but that not what we are doing with aged care workers, healthcare workers, etc - and moreso with their families.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

I don't disagree with you, but that not what we are doing with aged care workers, healthcare workers, etc - and moreso with their families.

The aged, and especially those living in residential care as many have comorbidities, are a more vulnerable group than this cohort. Having said that the vaccine seems so far to be working quite well at protecting them.

The students are also mixing with everyone else at the school (students in other year levels, students etc), and not just their year level. Plus all the visitors. Are we going to vaccinate all of them. Plus the approach here needs to mirror what we are doing for all indigenous people. Are we vaccinating everyone throughout as a priority that an indigenous person may regularly contact? I doubt it.


In 2022 we live a more normal existence everyone will most likely get exposed to Covid 19.

Plus right now vaccinated indigenous people in say Darwin are freely mingling with unvaccinated people. Some of them in poor health. I do not see why this cohort should get extra protection at all beyond being vaccinated.

 

[Lynda2475]

2020 restrictions were stricter than 2021. During actual lockdown last year, weekly boarders mostly went home and did remote learning, those that remained became full time boarders until restrictions lifted. Most students were back on campus for face to face classes for all of term 4 (many much earlier the prior term)

In 2021 weekly boarding is once again an option and they have been going home on weekends. I'm not sure if the Full Time Boarders have any ongoing restrictions other than living in different rooms/floors, but seems redundant given over half the form is in the community regualrly.

Year groups were in a bubble with no mixing allowed.

Year groups still allow boarders to mix freely with day students in classes and at lunch for extended periods. If a day student had Covid a boarder in the same class would absolutely be a close contact and vice versa. Plus in senior school, there are some courses that have both accelerated Year 11 and Year 12 students in the same class.

Boarders have also participated in interschool sports matches unmasked with kids from other schools this year on a regular basis.

The current Sydney-wide lock down began after private schools were already on winter holidays and Hunters Hill was not in one of the 7 LGAs that had earlier restrictions before 26th June. Obviously everyone is remote learning next week, what happens after that will depend on what new orders are issued and whether they suspend weekly boarders again.

 

[MelMel]

Data point - NSW GPs administering Pfizer.

Allowed 9 doses per week per doctor registered to a practise. In reality given 10 doses and allowance of 1 dose spoiled/wasted (talkative practise manager).

This inner city practise (medical centre) appeared on the NSW booking engine mid last week. I incorrectly assumed it was only for AZ at that time - turns out I was wrong, they'd opened up for bookings. Well, up to a point.

First doses of Pfizer to arrive will come on Wednesday July 14th. Booked out to late July as of today.

BUT:

• will not make a booking for Pfizer vaccine until after you come for a consultation with a GP first, once that done then, and only then will they allow you to book your 1st appointment for Pfizer.
• at that time you are unable to book your 2nd appointment (reason: in case you don't turn up for your first)

So I asked why they required a pre-booking consultation (bulk-billed) to be able to book as the NSW Govt booking system only requires to answer a series of questions before allowing a booking to be made.

"That is how our GPs want to organise it."

I questioned whether the procedure was being mixed-up with what is required for an under 60yr old wanting AZ? No. Both vaccines require a pre-booking consultation, but don't worry as it is bulk-billed so you do not pay anything. I queried this several times, politely.

Finally, I asked if they could double-check & was put on to the practise manager. Several more 'this is how we do it' etc. Then they came back to say that they would make an exception and allow me not to have a pre-booking consultation but would have to answer about a dozen questions on a form when I came in for the vaccination.

Asked if I could make the 2nd booking now? No, only after the vaccination has been completed & you have suffered no adverse reaction in the following 30 minutes.

Hmmm.

Has anyone heard of or had to have a pre-booking consultation requirement for Pfizer?

Only have a Melbourne data point but 43 year old friend booked online for first Pfizer at a GP practice they’ve never been to - no mention of an initial consultation.

 

[JB expat]

Only have a Melbourne data point but 43 year old friend booked online for first Pfizer at a GP practice they’ve never been to - no mention of an initial consultation.

I had AZ at a practice, not my own - all questions done online in advance. My husband has booked in his Pfizer at same practice (not his own) and had to answer a bunch of questions online. No GP consult required. Also in Melb.

 

[louie-m]

So I asked why they required a pre-booking consultation (bulk-billed) to be able to book as the NSW Govt booking system only requires to answer a series of questions before allowing a booking to be made.

"That is how our GPs want to organise it."

I questioned whether the procedure was being mixed-up with what is required for an under 60yr old wanting AZ? No. Both vaccines require a pre-booking consultation, but don't worry as it is bulk-billed so you do not pay anything. I queried this several times, politely.

Sounds like the GPs see this as a gravy train.

 

[Lynda2475]

Allowed 9 doses per week per doctor registered to a practise. In reality given 10 doses and allowance of 1 dose spoiled/wasted (talkative practise manager).

Pfizer comes in multi-dose vials that contain 6 doses which then need to be diluted before being given. So the allowance has to be in a multiple of 6, making this statement unlikely to be true.

GP consult is not required for Pfizer if you are aged 40-59, unless you are 60 or over and claiming you cant have AZ.

However, the GP you spoke to obviously is doing their own thing and wanting to do consults that aren't required.

If you are unhappy to go along with that, then I suggest you book at a state run mass vaccination clinic where you can book online for both doses from the get go or try a GPRC or another GP.

 

[Princess Fiona]

2020 restrictions were stricter than 2021. During actual lockdown last year, weekly boarders mostly went home and did remote learning, those that remained became full time boarders until restrictions lifted. Most students were back on campus for face to face classes for all of term 4 (many much earlier the prior term)

In 2021 weekly boarding is once again an option and they have been going home on weekends. I'm not sure if the Full Time Boarders have any ongoing restrictions other than living in different rooms/floors, but seems redundant given over half the form is in the community regualrly.



Year groups still allow boarders to mix freely with day students in classes and at lunch for extended periods. If a day student had Covid a boarder in the same class would absolutely be a close contact and vice versa. Plus in senior school, there are some courses that have both accelerated Year 11 and Year 12 students in the same class.

Boarders have also participated in interschool sports matches unmasked with kids from other schools this year on a regular basis.

The current Sydney-wide lock down began after private schools were already on winter holidays and Hunters Hill was not in one of the 7 LGAs that had earlier restrictions before 26th June. Obviously everyone is remote learning next week, what happens after that will depend on what new orders are issued and whether they suspend weekly boarders again.

I have first hand knowledge as a parent of Sydney boarders.
I am not here to split hairs with you.
What we all need to be mindful of is that through no fault of their own, a bunch of 17/18 year old boarder boys who are under enormous pressure at the end of their schooling have been thrust into the media spotlight. Prior to this they had been dealing with enormous personal tragedy in their community. I doubt any of the media covering this know that.

A mistake was made by NSW health.
They have admitted the same.
It’s time to move on.

 

[Pushka]

After today's meeting I'm feeling more confident that more progress is being made and that at last the media seems to be onboard.