The demise of Qantas international flights

[Isochronous]

That being said, CX operates YVR-JFK and sells tickets on that segment as part of HKG-YVR-JFK flights, so perhaps the QF flight could duck back down into a US city - maybe ORD? BOS even? AA doesn't run too many YVR services apart from those out of DFW, so I'm sure something mutually acceptable could be worked out.

 

[wandering_fred]

From what I hear from some QF staffers, PER to TXL via DXB is on the cards. Or so the rumour goes, with an A330.

Having flown in PEY on the A330 of CX, I would venture that QF will struggle on long haul planes that do not have Y+. And the W cabin is one that is the most restrictive on partner code shares amongst all that airlines offer it. People will fill the cabin if the flight exceeds 5-6 hours (and/or is a red-eye)

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[ajw373]

Having flown in PEY on the A330 of CX, I would venture that QF will struggle on long haul planes that do not have Y+. And the W cabin is one that is the most restrictive on partner code shares amongst all that airlines offer it. People will fill the cabin if the flight exceeds 5-6 hours (and/or is a red-eye)

Happy wandering

Fred

Oh you mean struggle like Emirates does without premium economy? If anything where Qantas would struggle using A330's is with the business class product.

 

[wandering_fred]

That being said, CX operates YVR-JFK and sells tickets on that segment as part of HKG-YVR-JFK flights, so perhaps the QF flight could duck back down into a US city - maybe ORD? BOS even? AA doesn't run too many YVR services apart from those out of DFW, so I'm sure something mutually acceptable could be worked out.

In round figures SYD-YVR will be 15 hours and YVR-SYD 16 hours. There's not enough time for a tag flight except to the USA west coast (SFO PDX SEA) without requiring more than one plane a day. PHX/DFW/ORD would be 4+, JFK 5+ and MIA 6ish hours each way.

Adding a second PER-SIN to make a morning/evening in each direction is on my list. The evening arrival into SIN would have time to permit SIN-BKK or SIN-HKG. While those are super competitive markets, OW is very thin on SIN-BKK and QF has never worried about keeping CX happy. At least exHKG the CX flights show up when HKG-PER is requested. There might be time to schedule SIN-PVG or SIN-PEK. But they would need better connections (and timing) than JQ attempted.

But in the end PER needs to have a single combined domestic/international terminal for QF to consider even PER-DXB-Europe.

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[RooFlyer]

This is the present agreement. My reading is that an Australian airline is allowed to serve two ports in Canada from any port in Australia, either direct or via SFO, HNL, PPT or NAN. So I think it would be legal to operate a SYD-YVR-YYZ service, although Qantas would not be allowed to sell YVR-YYZ tickets. They would, however, be able to exercise fifth freedom rights on intermediate sectors.

Agreement between the Government of Australia and the Government of Canada relating to Air Services [1988] ATS 12


In terms of capacity.... 3,000 seats a week in each direction are available.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/av...egister_available_capacity_270613.pdf#page=15



EDIT: A more detailed reading of the Department of Infrastucture website states that the agreement above was "Supplemented by MoU of 2000*." I can't find this MoU immediately so if anyone knows its contents please point out if the content I've posted above is no longer materially accurate.

This is the Canadian equivalent: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/australia with annotation:

June 1, 2000 Exchange of Notes (Designation of Air Canada)
July 13, 2000 Agreed Minute (Revisions to Capacity, Code-sharing, Route Rights, and Aircraft Leasing provisions)

... so a lot of revision! Can't find any further info on this searching on the Canadian site.

 

[moa999]

While I would be happy with a well supported spacious recliner for a day flight (eg cx regional j), most won't accept it for overnights.

With the Asian stage lengths, Qf flights are pretty much daytime into Asia, but overnight return, thus a flat bed in J a must.

 

[Isochronous]

In round figures SYD-YVR will be 15 hours and YVR-SYD 16 hours. There's not enough time for a tag flight except to the USA west coast (SFO PDX SEA) without requiring more than one plane a day. PHX/DFW/ORD would be 4+, JFK 5+ and MIA 6ish hours each way.

Adding a second PER-SIN to make a morning/evening in each direction is on my list. The evening arrival into SIN would have time to permit SIN-BKK or SIN-HKG. While those are super competitive markets, OW is very thin on SIN-BKK and QF has never worried about keeping CX happy. At least exHKG the CX flights show up when HKG-PER is requested. There might be time to schedule SIN-PVG or SIN-PEK. But they would need better connections (and timing) than JQ attempted.

But in the end PER needs to have a single combined domestic/international terminal for QF to consider even PER-DXB-Europe.

Happy wandering

Fred

Tag flight or not, YVR is a must.

 

[dajop]

While I would be happy with a well supported spacious recliner for a day flight (eg cx regional j), most won't accept it for overnights.

With the Asian stage lengths, Qf flights are pretty much daytime into Asia, but overnight return, thus a flat bed in J a must.

Trouble is connxn and SYD curfew - remembering Qantas is very SYD-centric. I've often thought an afternoon departure from SIN (like EK's BNE services, when there isn't runway works on at BNE) would be neat. Something like MEL-SIN 0730/1325 SIN-MEL 1500/0045 would be OK, remembering 0045 is 2245 body clock time. JQ's flight - with its recliners - would work well on this timing, as it probably doesn't have strong connections at the Australian end, unlike QF - and at the moment it ludicrously mirrors QF's timing.

 

[Robert Qld]

DXB-TXL... another party boy route hey? ha.

I'm definitely no an expert here but, as someone who loves to travel to Berlin, it's my understanding that the German government are highly protective of Lufthansa on this route, and that's why EK doesn't fly there. Would love to see EK, QF or even SQ add a TXL/BER but even with recent rumour, I can't see it happening anytime soon.

The one thing in QF's favour is there is very little to protect coming out of TXL/BER at the moment. Due to the funky Cold War Legecy airport situation, even LH avoids flying anything but short intra-EU routes out of it. When Brandenburg finally opens and they decommission Tegal, I guess there has to be some kinda push or incentive by the German government to attract airlines to fly there to begin with and create an impressive hub they're spending all this money in building!

A city of Berlin's size should really be forced go go via FRA or MUC to travel anywhere...

yeah, still pie in the sky in regards to QF, but I live in hope (look at my avatar! Clearly I love the city!)

 

[gwilli1]

My 2c worth on this topic which i have discussed in many previous threads.... YVR is a must somehow. Its ridiculous AC has a monopoly on the direct Aust-Canada route. i think something should be done with the 747 that sits at LAX for around 16 hours...possibly ORD. I hope Berlin gets a look in once Brandenburg opens ... god knows when that will be , with the service originating in PER with an A330 as many have suggested.

 

[Must...Fly!]

It would be nice if QF started a Brandenburg service from Perth when it opens. If it is relatively soon it would be nice to see EK go to 2 daily but upgrade one frequency to A380, leaving QF to run PER-DXB-BER with an A330 in the 3rd time slot (departing ~4pm, to hook up with QF1/9).

However that shouldn't happen until the A330's get their refurb.

My personal belief is that QF are more likely to start a DXB (or BER) crew base and run a DXB-BER-DXB service on a 777 from EK.

 

[cove]

With EK running making almost no money on the huge coughnal of planes QFI has linked to them for much of its international routes. Why would QF bother buying planes based on today's economics for international?

 

[Must...Fly!]

With EK running making almost no money on the huge coughnal of planes QFI has linked to them for much of its international routes. Why would QF bother buying planes based on today's economics for international?

QF have shown time and time again that if they think a dollar can be made they will inject capital if it is available. Even if the market is a little soft now there is still plenty of people flying.

However the key to that is available capital....which is where EK might come in handy. No one knows how deep this JSA really goes.

 

[Mattg]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who would like QF to fly to Berlin!

i just did a quick search to see what the currently offering is and my search for SYD-TXL simply said "cannot find fare for requested itinerary" or something like this. I then tried using the multi-city booking and searching SYD-DXB-TXL-DXB-SYD, and it offered QF1/2 to/from DXB, but then silly routings for DXB-TXL. It offered either an emirates flight to London, then a BA flight to Berlin, arriving at 1pm the next day, OR an emirates flight to MUC or FRA and a AB flight to TXL - but with a ~ 7 hour stopover in DXB. The other direction wasn't much better. To top it off, the cost (with current sale) is > $2300, making it several hundred dollars more expensive than fares to other European cities. It's as though QF aren't even trying, which is a real shame

 

[Robert Qld]

Mattg - I've actually found the most painless route to be the QF/AY code share to HEL and only about a two hour stopover i HEL before the connecting HEL-TXL flight.

The one downside is to get it all on one ticket you have to book though AY or a third party website (often on AY flight numbers), the QF website even with multi city bookings doesn't like the HEL-TXL leg.

 

[Fruitcake]

... so a lot of revision! Can't find any further info on this searching on the Canadian site.

Thanks RooFlyer. I managed to dig up some more stuff at the Australian end too - but nothing too significant. The International Air Services Commission manages the details of all the agreements, and they have a few published decisions related to Canadian services:

Determinations and Decisions - Canada

Essentially these can be summarised as:

1. September 2005: QF requests allocation of three 747 flights per week to YVR as a seasonal (Dec, Jan, and Jun) extension of its SYD-SFO service. 1,029 seats per week.
2. January 2007: QF requests that allocation increased by a nominal amount to cover extra seats in some 747 configs that might operate the service. 1,065 seats per week.
3. April 2008: Qantas gives up all capacity to Canada.

 

[Mattg]

Mattg - I've actually found the most painless route to be the QF/AY code share to HEL and only about a two hour stopover i HEL before the connecting HEL-TXL flight.

The one downside is to get it all on one ticket you have to book though AY or a third party website (often on AY flight numbers), the QF website even with multi city bookings doesn't like the HEL-TXL leg.

Interesting - will keep that in mind, although I very much prefer QF metal for as much of the trip as possible.

Being not bookable on the QF site re-iterates my point that they are hardly trying on this route..

 

[gwilli1]

Thanks RooFlyer. I managed to dig up some more stuff at the Australian end too - but nothing too significant. The International Air Services Commission manages the details of all the agreements, and they have a few published decisions related to Canadian services:

Determinations and Decisions - Canada

Essentially these can be summarised as:

1. September 2005: QF requests allocation of three 747 flights per week to YVR as a seasonal (Dec, Jan, and Jun) extension of its SYD-SFO service. 1,029 seats per week.
2. January 2007: QF requests that allocation increased by a nominal amount to cover extra seats in some 747 configs that might operate the service. 1,065 seats per week.
3. April 2008: Qantas gives up all capacity to Canada.

Maybe we should put an application to ISAC on behalf of QF to get the ball rolling on YVR again

 

[zachary.august]

Interesting - will keep that in mind, although I very much prefer QF metal for as much of the trip as possible.

Being not bookable on the QF site re-iterates my point that they are hardly trying on this route..

Mattg, these can be booked through QF Telephone Sales for a fair price and a good layover in HEL.

 

[RooFlyer]

Mattg, these can be booked through QF Telephone Sales for a fair price and a good layover in HEL.

I use a TA myself, but yes, AY have been very well priced this year, including connections on QF metal from Oz to Asia and back. The inta-Europe leg is dirt cheap also when bundled up with it.