Tokyo Haneda slot - how will Virgin Operate it?

[Revenge]

No meals/drinks onboard, except tea, coffee and water.

Wait what? You weren't able to buy food for that entire long flight?

 

[Happy Dude]

Wait what? You weren't able to buy food for that entire long flight?

I meant for free. The appeared to be food, snacks and drinks for purchase. We knew that so came prepared and also indulged at the land-side Yoshinoya beforehand.

Just on the catering, my wife overheard the J purser explaining that only 8 J meals had been loaded after one of the J pax complained when their choice wasn't available. The purser offered the pax something from the "for purchase" menu instead.

 

[BRIS_VA_HAWK]

Just on the catering, my wife overheard the J purser explaining that only 8 J meals had been loaded after one of the J pax complained when their choice wasn't available. The purser offered the pax something from the "for purchase" menu instead.

This is where allowing J pax to pre-book their food would be useful. UA allow for this between 5-1 days prior to departure - worked well on every leg of my recent trip where I had it active.

 

[HS-TQE]

As I've stated previously, VA could follow their LCC and Value Carrier competitors such as Jetstar, Batik Air and AirAsia into allowing booked pre-booked meals added onto their fares in Y, as well as a "Book The Cook" reserve your meal option in J for Short Haul International trips (including CNS-HND).

As per the notes on the other LCC/Value Carrier booking engines, there should be note stating that the meals "could be changed on the day due to operational reasons"

 

[Saab34]

VA seems to be very behind anything that involves technology, the CEO said that the place was a decade behind.

Perhaps the systems are just not capable. We have all seen how rubbish the website is.

 

[Keilobyte]

I flew MEL>CNS>HND Economy X, and then return HND>CNS>MEL in business. Some observations from my experience:

MEL>CNS>HND (Economy X)

• My flight out of Melbourne was very early in order to make (6:30am departure). I am WP so had lounge access at Melbourne which was nice, but with a 3hr 20min connection, it felt very early to be starting my travel day. I ended up staying at the Park Royal the night before because the departure was so early.
• Even getting to the airport over an hour early, the 'International Connections' desk at T3 was insanely busy and slow moving. I was lucky that I could use the priority desk (far left) to be processed there because they had a check-in person who was trained to process international departures there. If they didn't have this person there, or if I was a Red member, I would have been concerned about missing my departure
• Connection at CNS Dom>Int was seamless. They checked my luggage straight through and I got my boarding pass for both flights at Melbourne
• CNS International is terrible. No lounges, 1 coffee shop-cough-bar and not much else except for a newsagents and 1 or 2 touristy shops. For a long connection it is woeful.
• 8IA definitely looks brand new inside. Still has that new plane smell. I was a bit apprehensive flying the MAX having sworn never to do so, but to be honest, it was fine.
• The first 1.5hrs of the flight were quite bumpy (flying up to PNG). It smoothed out after that.
• Economy X legroom (row 3) is absolutely massive, bigger than business. As others have mentioned, there is no bulkhead/divider.
• While they did meal service for the business class cabin, they were strict on sending any economy passengers who tried to use the front lavatory to the back or wait until the trolly in the aisle had returned to the back, but as the flight wore on you could see this was a losing fight. There is nothing to prevent people trying to move forward and from midway onwards you could tell the crew had pretty much given up - and I don't really blame them. VA really need to get a divider solution in place because it isn't realistic to expect the business class flight attendant to be policing the cabin divide for ecomony pax for the entire flight when they are trying to do other things. And it certainly felt like there were people who were waiting for the FA to be busy before trying to barge through (row 3 was great for observing this sort of stuff).
• Buy on Board was sufficient. I had some cheese and crackers and a glass of wine early in the flight but wanted something more substantial later in the flight that aligned more with a proper meal time.
• 2nd trolley service was WAAAAAAY too late and slow. They made an announcement about half way through the flight that 'the crew are restocking the trolley and a second service will commence in an hour'. This was obviously a total lie since we could see crew taking turns resting in the back row of economy and the announcement was made to shut people up using the call bell to request food. 1hr40min later the trolley service commenced (yes I timed it because I’d only had 1 packet of cheese and crackers to this point and I was starving). I ordered the ‘Japanese curry’. There was a massive delay between ordering this (remember I was row 3 so was among the first served in the service), and it wasn’t brought out until we were making our descent into HND so I had about 5-10min to wolf it down as the crew impatiently tried to do a rubbish collection. The ‘Japanese’ curry was a honey-soy-chicken curry which didn’t feel very Japanese at all. Massive fail and a let down for the end of the flight.

HND>CNS>MEL (Business)

• Flight is a late departure, which posed a problem for me since it was 30C+ and high humidity in Tokyo and I had to leave my hotel room at 10am. This meant by the time I checked into my flight I was a sweaty, exhausted mess. Since there is no lounge arrangement for VA passengers, even in business class, I paid for access to the Sky Lounge at T3 and then paid additional for shower access in their adjacent TIAT Lounge. VA reaaaally need to get something in place here, if only due to the late departure. The Sky Lounge was small and got crowded quickly after I got there, so arrive early if you intend on using this lounge.
• VA78 was fine. The business class crew were great and were more proactive at managing people trying to use the lavatory from the economy cabin. It probably helped that the return flight was much quieter than the outbound flight, and more people were just trying to sleep.
• I had the bento box for dinner (was delicious) and had the cheesy eggs for breakfast (was okay) and plenty of wine between. Slept on and off for a few hours. The recliner seat is comfortable but obviously a lie-flat bed would have been preferred. I couldn’t sleep well sitting up and it was probably the wine more than anything that helped put me down. I had slept terribly the night before so by the time we came into CNS I was beginning to feel quite exhausted and groggy (the wine would not have helped here either).
• My stopover at CNS was 4hrs20min. This was torture for me. There is no lounge access currently at domestic and it was an absolute zoo in the terminal. I ended up trying to rest by laying on the curvy lounges just after security but failed miserably due to the constant noise and chaos around me. By this point I hadn’t slept properly in over 24hrs.
• CNS>MEL was a bit delayed departing and the cabin manager serving business was an absolute dream. I refused food service because I felt quite deathly by the time we left because I was so utterly exhausted. She kept bringing me water and checking in on me which was lovely and you could see she felt bad she couldn’t really do anything to help my situation. I nodded off for maybe half an hour and woke feeling a little more human.

So there are my observations.
I guess there are a few things I would suggest VA do which would come as no surprise for people reading these forums:

TLDR:

• VA need to get international lounge access arrangements going on long international routes like this if they want to be taken seriously. Especially if they insist on itineraries with long stopovers if they aren’t going to adjust their domestic flights to connect better
• They also need to reopen the CNS domestic lounge because the terminal was absolute chaos on my long stopover back.
• They need to get a cabin divider installed between economy and business on the MAX asap
• They need to adjust their trolley service times in economy and ensure they give enough time for the 2nd service on outbound daytime flights since this should coincide with when more people might be expecting a dinner type meal.
• They need to get wide body aircraft on long routes like this. A lie-flat bed would have made the world of difference in how exhausted I was on my return leg if I could have actually slept lying down.

 

[Keilobyte]

I flew MEL>CNS>HND Economy X, and then return HND>CNS>MEL in business. Some observations from my experience:

MEL>CNS>HND (Economy X)

• My flight out of Melbourne was very early in order to make (6:30am departure). I am WP so had lounge access at Melbourne which was nice, but with a 3hr 20min connection, it felt very early to be starting my travel day. I ended up staying at the Park Royal the night before because the departure was so early.
• Even getting to the airport over an hour early, the 'International Connections' desk at T3 was insanely busy and slow moving. I was lucky that I could use the priority desk (far left) to be processed there because they had a check-in person who was trained to process international departures there. If they didn't have this person there, or if I was a Red member, I would have been concerned about missing my departure
• Connection at CNS Dom>Int was seamless. They checked my luggage straight through and I got my boarding pass for both flights at Melbourne
• CNS International is terrible. No lounges, 1 coffee shop-cough-bar and not much else except for a newsagents and 1 or 2 touristy shops. For a long connection it is woeful.
• 8IA definitely looks brand new inside. Still has that new plane smell. I was a bit apprehensive flying the MAX having sworn never to do so, but to be honest, it was fine.
• The first 1.5hrs of the flight were quite bumpy (flying up to PNG). It smoothed out after that.
• Economy X legroom (row 3) is absolutely massive, bigger than business. As others have mentioned, there is no bulkhead/divider.
• While they did meal service for the business class cabin, they were strict on sending any economy passengers who tried to use the front lavatory to the back or wait until the trolly in the aisle had returned to the back, but as the flight wore on you could see this was a losing fight. There is nothing to prevent people trying to move forward and from midway onwards you could tell the crew had pretty much given up - and I don't really blame them. VA really need to get a divider solution in place because it isn't realistic to expect the business class flight attendant to be policing the cabin divide for ecomony pax for the entire flight when they are trying to do other things. And it certainly felt like there were people who were waiting for the FA to be busy before trying to barge through (row 3 was great for observing this sort of stuff).
• Buy on Board was sufficient. I had some cheese and crackers and a glass of wine early in the flight but wanted something more substantial later in the flight that aligned more with a proper meal time.
• 2nd trolley service was WAAAAAAY too late and slow. They made an announcement about half way through the flight that 'the crew are restocking the trolley and a second service will commence in an hour'. This was obviously a total lie since we could see crew taking turns resting in the back row of economy and the announcement was made to shut people up using the call bell to request food. 1hr40min later the trolley service commenced (yes I timed it because I’d only had 1 packet of cheese and crackers to this point and I was starving). I ordered the ‘Japanese curry’. There was a massive delay between ordering this (remember I was row 3 so was among the first served in the service), and it wasn’t brought out until we were making our descent into HND so I had about 5-10min to wolf it down as the crew impatiently tried to do a rubbish collection. The ‘Japanese’ curry was a honey-soy-chicken curry which didn’t feel very Japanese at all. Massive fail and a let down for the end of the flight.

HND>CNS>MEL (Business)

• Flight is a late departure, which posed a problem for me since it was 30C+ and high humidity in Tokyo and I had to leave my hotel room at 10am. This meant by the time I checked into my flight I was a sweaty, exhausted mess. Since there is no lounge arrangement for VA passengers, even in business class, I paid for access to the Sky Lounge at T3 and then paid additional for shower access in their adjacent TIAT Lounge. VA reaaaally need to get something in place here, if only due to the late departure. The Sky Lounge was small and got crowded quickly after I got there, so arrive early if you intend on using this lounge.
• VA78 was fine. The business class crew were great and were more proactive at managing people trying to use the lavatory from the economy cabin. It probably helped that the return flight was much quieter than the outbound flight, and more people were just trying to sleep.
• I had the bento box for dinner (was delicious) and had the cheesy eggs for breakfast (was okay) and plenty of wine between. Slept on and off for a few hours. The recliner seat is comfortable but obviously a lie-flat bed would have been preferred. I couldn’t sleep well sitting up and it was probably the wine more than anything that helped put me down. I had slept terribly the night before so by the time we came into CNS I was beginning to feel quite exhausted and groggy (the wine would not have helped here either).
• My stopover at CNS was 4hrs20min. This was torture for me. There is no lounge access currently at domestic and it was an absolute zoo in the terminal. I ended up trying to rest by laying on the curvy lounges just after security but failed miserably due to the constant noise and chaos around me. By this point I hadn’t slept properly in over 24hrs.
• CNS>MEL was a bit delayed departing and the cabin manager serving business was an absolute dream. I refused food service because I felt quite deathly by the time we left because I was so utterly exhausted. She kept bringing me water and checking in on me which was lovely and you could see she felt bad she couldn’t really do anything to help my situation. I nodded off for maybe half an hour and woke feeling a little more human.

So there are my observations.
I guess there are a few things I would suggest VA do which would come as no surprise for people reading these forums:

TLDR:

• VA need to get international lounge access arrangements going on long international routes like this if they want to be taken seriously. Especially if they insist on itineraries with long stopovers if they aren’t going to adjust their domestic flights to connect better
• They also need to reopen the CNS domestic lounge because the terminal was absolute chaos on my long layout back.
• They need to get a cabin divider installed between economy and business on the MAX asap
• They need to adjust their trolley service times in economy and ensure they give enough time for the 2nd service on outbound daytime flights since this should coincide with when more people might be expecting a dinner meal.
• They absolute need to get wide body aircraft on long routes like this. A lie-flat bed would have made the world of difference in how exhausted I was on my return leg if I could have actually slept lying down.

I will add that this trip did allow me to requalify for Plat which, along with cheap fares when they first announced the route, was part of my motivation to book these specific flights - so there were definite upsides to these flights as well

 

[bcworld]

• They need to get wide body aircraft on long routes like this. A lie-flat bed would have made the world of difference in how exhausted I was on my return leg if I could have actually slept lying down.

A widebody aircraft isn't necessary for lie flat beds though. Plenty of examples now of 737 Max and A32X Neo out there with decent lie flat business products.

 

[Keilobyte]

A widebody aircraft isn't necessary for lie flat beds though. Plenty of examples now of 737 Max and A32X Neo out there with decent lie flat business products.

That's true, I take your point.

I referenced wide bodies since they are justified on long range routes and are likely to be kitted out with lie-flats because of that. They were never going to put lie-flats on the Max when they may end up switched to short domestic routes and hops from the east coast to Nadi/Bali etc where QF offers 737s with recliners too.

Obviously I'm just playing arm chair CEO here, and I accept they are keeping things leans for now as they hopefully get ready for their IPO. But I do think CNS is going to be a sticking point here and they need aircraft with more range to fly it from a more integrated hub with better and more frequent domestic connections and with a (justified) better lie-flat product. They just can't do that with the limitations of narrow body aircraft like the Max.

 

[justinbrett]

Is alcohol free in Y?

 

[Keilobyte]

Is alcohol free in Y?

Unfortunately not. They treat this route like they do domestic routes re: buy on board. Coffee, tea and water are only offered free for economy. Everything else must be paid for by physical credit card (still no cash or phone/watch payments).

 

[HS-TQE]

That's true, I take your point.

I referenced wide bodies since they are justified on long range routes and are likely to be kitted out with lie-flats because of that. They were never going to put lie-flats on the Max when they may end up switched to short domestic routes and hops from the east coast to Nadi/Bali etc where QF offers 737s with recliners too.

Obviously I'm just playing arm chair CEO here, and I accept they are keeping things leans for now as they hopefully get ready for their IPO. But I do think CNS is going to be a sticking point here and they need aircraft with more range to fly it from a more integrated hub with better and more frequent domestic connections and with a (justified) better lie-flat product. They just can't do that with the limitations of narrow body aircraft like the Max.

I can't see VA in their current management or any future post-IPO management doing a bespoke/small sub-fleet of 737-8 MAX fitted with flatbeds for HND and perhaps DPS-East Coast, where those two destinations are only a small group of overnight flights taking anywhere between 6.5 to 8 hours.

Even if VA did fit the fleet of 8x 737-8 MAX with flatbeds, the problem becomes yield, and if VA can't fill those flatbeds at a decent yield, the business case for flatbeds on self-proclaimed 'Value Carrier' (largely competing with the likes of Jetstar, Batik Air and AirAsia) becomes weak if the yield per sold seat on a flatbed becomes a loss.

In addition, it would reduce some flexibility as VA in its current management and possibly future managements will want the aircraft for example operate a DPS-SYD, then rotate on domestic runs the next morning on arrival in SYD. Same for HND-CNS, then onward to BNE (domestic rotation) then various domestic runs out of BNE when the 737-8 fleet starts to grow.

 

[Bagpuss]

I can't see VA in their current management or any future post-IPO management doing a bespoke/small sub-fleet of 737-8 MAX fitted with flatbeds for HND and perhaps DPS-East Coast, where those two destinations are only a small group of overnight flights taking anywhere between 6.5 to 8 hours.

I think this is planned for the 737-10 which would fly these routes when they get the air frames.

 

[HS-TQE]

I think this is planned for the 737-10 which would fly these routes when they get the air frames.

IIRC Jayne's predecessor Paul cancelled this plan, which was initially planned under John Borghetti.

I wouldn't be surprised if the -10s are largely LCC/Value Carrier Y-heavy with the standard 8J in 2024, on the assumption the IPO is in 2024.

 

[jrfsp]

IIRC Jayne's predecessor Paul cancelled this plan, which was initially planned under John Borghetti.

I wouldn't be surprised if the -10s are largely LCC/Value Carrier Y-heavy with the standard 8J in 2024, on the assumption the IPO is in 2024.

Agree, I wouldn't be surprised if they add a 3rd row of J in the 10s though

 

[Keilobyte]

I can't see VA in their current management or any future post-IPO management doing a bespoke/small sub-fleet of 737-8 MAX fitted with flatbeds for HND and perhaps DPS-East Coast, where those two destinations are only a small group of overnight flights taking anywhere between 6.5 to 8 hours.

Agree, I also don't think they would get a sub-fleet of MAX-8's specific for these routes. My hope (and comment above) was around picking up wide-bodies post-IPO (A350, 787 etc).

I'm hoping post-IPO they look to expand beyond a mostly domestic network and offer more international routes, but I guess we will need to see what the ownership structure looks like for that. Speaking of, has there been anything further on the IPO front? It all seems to have gone quiet.

 

[bcworld]

Agree, I also don't think they would get a sub-fleet of MAX-8's specific for these routes. My hope (and comment above) was around picking up wide-bodies post-IPO (A350, 787 etc).

I'd say it's more likely they'd add a decent product to narrow body aircraft than get back into wide body flying.

 

[stm1sydney]

I will add that this trip did allow me to requalify for Plat which, along with cheap fares when they first announced the route, was part of my motivation to book these specific flights - so there were definite upsides to these flights as well

That's the main benefit, you get a long way to requal WP for a relatively cheap "J" price, and you get to visit Tokyo as a bonus!

 

[Happy Dude]

I flew MEL>CNS>HND Economy X, and then return HND>CNS>MEL in business. Some observations from my experience:

MEL>CNS>HND (Economy X)

• My flight out of Melbourne was very early in order to make (6:30am departure). I am WP so had lounge access at Melbourne which was nice, but with a 3hr 20min connection, it felt very early to be starting my travel day. I ended up staying at the Park Royal the night before because the departure was so early.
• Even getting to the airport over an hour early, the 'International Connections' desk at T3 was insanely busy and slow moving. I was lucky that I could use the priority desk (far left) to be processed there because they had a check-in person who was trained to process international departures there. If they didn't have this person there, or if I was a Red member, I would have been concerned about missing my departure
• Connection at CNS Dom>Int was seamless. They checked my luggage straight through and I got my boarding pass for both flights at Melbourne
• CNS International is terrible. No lounges, 1 coffee shop-cough-bar and not much else except for a newsagents and 1 or 2 touristy shops. For a long connection it is woeful.
• 8IA definitely looks brand new inside. Still has that new plane smell. I was a bit apprehensive flying the MAX having sworn never to do so, but to be honest, it was fine.
• The first 1.5hrs of the flight were quite bumpy (flying up to PNG). It smoothed out after that.
• Economy X legroom (row 3) is absolutely massive, bigger than business. As others have mentioned, there is no bulkhead/divider.
• While they did meal service for the business class cabin, they were strict on sending any economy passengers who tried to use the front lavatory to the back or wait until the trolly in the aisle had returned to the back, but as the flight wore on you could see this was a losing fight. There is nothing to prevent people trying to move forward and from midway onwards you could tell the crew had pretty much given up - and I don't really blame them. VA really need to get a divider solution in place because it isn't realistic to expect the business class flight attendant to be policing the cabin divide for ecomony pax for the entire flight when they are trying to do other things. And it certainly felt like there were people who were waiting for the FA to be busy before trying to barge through (row 3 was great for observing this sort of stuff).
• Buy on Board was sufficient. I had some cheese and crackers and a glass of wine early in the flight but wanted something more substantial later in the flight that aligned more with a proper meal time.
• 2nd trolley service was WAAAAAAY too late and slow. They made an announcement about half way through the flight that 'the crew are restocking the trolley and a second service will commence in an hour'. This was obviously a total lie since we could see crew taking turns resting in the back row of economy and the announcement was made to shut people up using the call bell to request food. 1hr40min later the trolley service commenced (yes I timed it because I’d only had 1 packet of cheese and crackers to this point and I was starving). I ordered the ‘Japanese curry’. There was a massive delay between ordering this (remember I was row 3 so was among the first served in the service), and it wasn’t brought out until we were making our descent into HND so I had about 5-10min to wolf it down as the crew impatiently tried to do a rubbish collection. The ‘Japanese’ curry was a honey-soy-chicken curry which didn’t feel very Japanese at all. Massive fail and a let down for the end of the flight.

HND>CNS>MEL (Business)

• Flight is a late departure, which posed a problem for me since it was 30C+ and high humidity in Tokyo and I had to leave my hotel room at 10am. This meant by the time I checked into my flight I was a sweaty, exhausted mess. Since there is no lounge arrangement for VA passengers, even in business class, I paid for access to the Sky Lounge at T3 and then paid additional for shower access in their adjacent TIAT Lounge. VA reaaaally need to get something in place here, if only due to the late departure. The Sky Lounge was small and got crowded quickly after I got there, so arrive early if you intend on using this lounge.
• VA78 was fine. The business class crew were great and were more proactive at managing people trying to use the lavatory from the economy cabin. It probably helped that the return flight was much quieter than the outbound flight, and more people were just trying to sleep.
• I had the bento box for dinner (was delicious) and had the cheesy eggs for breakfast (was okay) and plenty of wine between. Slept on and off for a few hours. The recliner seat is comfortable but obviously a lie-flat bed would have been preferred. I couldn’t sleep well sitting up and it was probably the wine more than anything that helped put me down. I had slept terribly the night before so by the time we came into CNS I was beginning to feel quite exhausted and groggy (the wine would not have helped here either).
• My stopover at CNS was 4hrs20min. This was torture for me. There is no lounge access currently at domestic and it was an absolute zoo in the terminal. I ended up trying to rest by laying on the curvy lounges just after security but failed miserably due to the constant noise and chaos around me. By this point I hadn’t slept properly in over 24hrs.
• CNS>MEL was a bit delayed departing and the cabin manager serving business was an absolute dream. I refused food service because I felt quite deathly by the time we left because I was so utterly exhausted. She kept bringing me water and checking in on me which was lovely and you could see she felt bad she couldn’t really do anything to help my situation. I nodded off for maybe half an hour and woke feeling a little more human.

So there are my observations.
I guess there are a few things I would suggest VA do which would come as no surprise for people reading these forums:

TLDR:

• VA need to get international lounge access arrangements going on long international routes like this if they want to be taken seriously. Especially if they insist on itineraries with long stopovers if they aren’t going to adjust their domestic flights to connect better
• They also need to reopen the CNS domestic lounge because the terminal was absolute chaos on my long stopover back.
• They need to get a cabin divider installed between economy and business on the MAX asap
• They need to adjust their trolley service times in economy and ensure they give enough time for the 2nd service on outbound daytime flights since this should coincide with when more people might be expecting a dinner type meal.
• They need to get wide body aircraft on long routes like this. A lie-flat bed would have made the world of difference in how exhausted I was on my return leg if I could have actually slept lying down.

You're experience closely mimicked mine. The late departure is a pain, especially with the heat, and the lack of lounge anywhere on the way home is a deal breaker for me when combined with only buy on board food. I did grab arrivals access at MEL for a much needed coffee though. And CNS is not pleasant to transit.

But the 'whY pax in the J toilet dance' is actually good viewing. Initially hosties were quite strict but I and my wife, and other pax too, did exactly as you described and just waited till the hosties were distracted. I don't apologise because the trek to the back lavs is tough and littered with obstacles.

 

[bcworld]

The ought to ditch the exclusively business class toilet anyway. Lack of it pales in comparison to lack of lounge availability.

It's a bit odd having seemingly desirable seats in rows 3,4 and 5 that require a 27 row walk to get to the dunny...in a single aisle aircraft with one or more service carts operating.