Upgrade Priority. Staff vs. Paying Passenger

[ecg]

The only confusion between the two seem to be coming from you and the other comment that you quoted. Sorry buddy but it is high unlikely to be duty travel when the passenger staff member is discussing with the cabin crew member the details of the holiday from which they are returning, to their home before being back on as cabin crew the next day, weekend or week.

Happy for you to ignore that and keep trying to confuse the issue. Enjoy your one sided conversation.

Hang on, this discussion was about upgrade priorities. Do you know for a fact that on that particular flight there were passengers denied odus? If not, this whole conversation is pointless and that staff member had every rigth to be there, whether on leisure or duty travel.

 

[cwphoto]

Duty travel has to be in uniform doesn't it? Not in uniform suggests not on duty to me.

No, most QF staff don't have a uniform.

 

[DAC1]

I'm glad there are people here making sense of it all, people with proper understanding of staff travel.

The reality of it is that staff are going to get benefits (which form part of staff policy or just under the table helping mates out) the paying public don't get. This happens everywhere.

Qantas don't want to give away super super preferential treatment to their frequent flyers. If everyone used points to upgrade and were successful most of the time they would never sell premium seats as its not worth it to the passenger if they had a decent chance of an upgrade.

As they don't fill all premium seats with frequent flyer upgrades, they put staff in there because as a part of their entitlements (and a reminder that the entitlement is the POSSIBILITY of a J seat, its never ever confirmed) and that's what they can get. If there is no seats left in J, they sit in Y (even those on duty travel). I will remind people though that it takes years and years of service before any staff member can access J and have a chance of actually getting a seat.

Ask any QF staff member and its a pretty even split between J and Y travel on staff travel through their career. Paying J passengers don't get shafted to Y for a staff member (although an exception may be someone like AJ, however this is unlikely and I only mentioned it before everyone attacks me with stories where it may have happened once or twice in 20 years).

Its really quite simple, and I hope this is on topic enough for the people bitter that their points upgrades don't always go through. As the saying goes be happy with the class you paid for and anything else is a bonus!

 

[medhead]

Hang on, this discussion was about upgrade priorities. Do you know for a fact that on that particular flight there were passengers denied odus? If not, this whole conversation is pointless and that staff member had every rigth to be there, whether on leisure or duty travel.

Please do keep up. The question was ask how it is known that another passenger is a staff member/crew. That question was raised without reference to the ODUs. So that's is what is currently being discussed. All in response to questions raised by posts trying to distract with confusion. You will also see, if you read the thread, that I've detailed 2 cases were an upgrade was or would have been denied.

And if you want to go back to the topic at hand. As suggested by a number of posts in this thread, it is highly likely that staff do get upgrades in front of passenger willing to use points. Go ahead and quote official policy all you like the fact remains that many of us have experiences that suggest such a policy does not always get implemented.

No, most QF staff don't have a uniform.

Another who could try reading. Cabin crew have uniforms don't they? I have outlined conversations that involve cabin crew not on duty travel, due to not being in uniform.

Again try following the conversation and stop trying to distract and ignore the points clearly stated already. Selective quoting suggests an agenda.

I'm glad there are people here making sense of it all, people with proper understanding of staff travel.

Oh yeah? Given yours and the last 2 posts ignore the points I've raised. I think it is more fair to say that you are failing to follow this thread or perhaps have an agenda.

Try answering the question already raised, oh master of staff travel, do cabin crew on duty have to travel in uniform? Once you've done that then answer how it is that a person, with cabin crew luggage, not in uniform, discussing returning from their holiday and their cabin crew roster for the coming week was on duty travel.

Finally your suggestion that people are bitter clearly outlines how much you've failed to take in what people have written here. No one is bitter and such a suggestion is a disgrace.

 

[ecg]

Please do keep up. The question was ask how it is known that another passenger is a staff member/crew. That question was raised without reference to the ODUs. So that's is what is currently being discussed. All in response to questions raised by posts trying to distract with confusion. You will also see, if you read the thread, that I've detailed 2 cases were an upgrade was or would have been denied.

And if you want to go back to the topic at hand. As suggested by a number of posts in this thread, it is highly likely that staff do get upgrades in front of passenger willing to use points. Go ahead and quote official policy all you like the fact remains that many of us have experiences that suggest such a policy does not always get implemented.



Another who could try reading. Cabin crew have uniforms don't they? I have outlined conversations that involve cabin crew not on duty travel, due to not being in uniform.

Again try following the conversation and stop trying to distract and ignore the points clearly stated already. Selective quoting suggests an agenda.



Oh yeah? Given yours and the last 2 posts ignore the points I've raised. I think it is more fair to say that you are failing to follow this thread or perhaps have an agenda.

Try answering the question already raised, oh master of staff travel, do cabin crew on duty have to travel in uniform? Once you've done that then answer how it is that a person, with cabin crew luggage, not in uniform, discussing returning from their holiday and their cabin crew roster for the coming week was on duty travel.

Finally your suggestion that people are bitter clearly outlines how much you've failed to take in what people have written here. No one is bitter and such a suggestion is a disgrace.

WOW!!!!

What can i say???

Clearly everyone else is wrong and you are the only one who is correct. Did you bother reading the title of the thread?? I guess only you decide what is on topic and what is not. I bow down before you.

oh and i love how all your theories are based on anecdotal evidence. But of course you are right, there can be no other possibility.

 

[ecg]

Please do keep up. The question was ask how it is known that another passenger is a staff member/crew. That question was raised without reference to the ODUs. So that's is what is currently being discussed. All in response to questions raised by posts trying to distract with confusion. You will also see, if you read the thread, that I've detailed 2 cases were an upgrade was or would have been denied.

And if you want to go back to the topic at hand. As suggested by a number of posts in this thread, it is highly likely that staff do get upgrades in front of passenger willing to use points. Go ahead and quote official policy all you like the fact remains that many of us have experiences that suggest such a policy does not always get implemented.



Another who could try reading. Cabin crew have uniforms don't they? I have outlined conversations that involve cabin crew not on duty travel, due to not being in uniform.

Again try following the conversation and stop trying to distract and ignore the points clearly stated already. Selective quoting suggests an agenda.



Oh yeah? Given yours and the last 2 posts ignore the points I've raised. I think it is more fair to say that you are failing to follow this thread or perhaps have an agenda.

Try answering the question already raised, oh master of staff travel, do cabin crew on duty have to travel in uniform? Once you've done that then answer how it is that a person, with cabin crew luggage, not in uniform, discussing returning from their holiday and their cabin crew roster for the coming week was on duty travel.

Finally your suggestion that people are bitter clearly outlines how much you've failed to take in what people have written here. No one is bitter and such a suggestion is a disgrace.

um last time i checked none of the executive team and board members wore uniforms. Or the reservations team. Or the operations team. Or all the other teams that work behind the scenes. Hang on, maybe they do becuase medhead is always right.

And if operating crew are not operating that day they don't pax in uniform either. but i'm sure that point will be overlooked or argued with.

 

[ftm]

**Insert sarcasm**

You know, I get so angry and upset every time I ring Optus, Foxtel, Energy Australia or buy something from Myer, Nespresso or any other retail outlet knowing that the person serving me gets something as a component of their employment that I don't.

It's just not fair is it.

Qantas staff shouldn't even be allowed to fly Qantas. That should be left for the DYKWIAs who should also get upgraded FOC all the time, because after all, DYKW they are?

**Remove sarcasm**

All the conspiricy theories in the world can come out and summise about what might have happened, but in the end it is quite clear that no leisure staff travel pax will ever get an upgrade before a commercial pax.

You'll never really know what type of ticket the pax was on. I know an awful lot of QF staff and can talk shop like the best of them, but that doesn't make me a staff traveller.

 

[straitman]

A reminder to ALL that the title of the thread is "Upgrade Priority. Staff vs. Paying Passenger" The topic may wander but in essence should come back to the topic.

 

[Downwind]

The reality of it is that staff are going to get benefits (which form part of staff policy or just under the table helping mates out) the paying public don't get. This happens everywhere.

This is the reality and it does happen everywhere... but I think the OP's question surrounds whether staff should take priority over fare paying passengers and IMHO, they should not, other than for duty travel (where the company requires them to be somewhere) and not simply staff travel for any other personal reason. The reasons are two fold. People fly and accrue FF points with the expectation that they can redeem them for upgrades, meaning QF has earnt revenue from these passengers and in doing so, it incurs a future liability that must be remedied at some point. I think it is better to reduce this liability and reward a passenger that contributes to your bottom line.

Qantas don't want to give away super super preferential treatment to their frequent flyers. If everyone used points to upgrade and were successful most of the time they would never sell premium seats as its not worth it to the passenger if they had a decent chance of an upgrade.

Why shouldn't they? They make representations that they will give preferential treatment to their FF passengers, the higher the tier, the more preferential the treatment. Clearly they cannot upgrade everyone for the reason you describe, but what is the point of flying empty J seats (@T-15) when you have 'x' passengers willing to redeem some FF points for an upgrade that has 3 benefits of pleasing the passenger, filling the seat and reducing a future liability?. QF have made attempts to remedy this by offering ODU's and again the OP is asking whether fare paying passengers receive priority over staff, and as ive said above, I think they should.

As they don't fill all premium seats with frequent flyer upgrades, they put staff in there because as a part of their entitlements (and a reminder that the entitlement is the POSSIBILITY of a J seat, its never ever confirmed) and that's what they can get. If there is no seats left in J, they sit in Y (even those on duty travel). I will remind people though that it takes years and years of service before any staff member can access J and have a chance of actually getting a seat.

I dont know where to begin other than to say you are flat out WRONG. Non duty staff travel is NOT an entitlement, it is a benefit, offered on a space available basis, exactly like passenger upgrades, which again goes back to the OP's question about who has priority. The benefit (not entitlement) varies between employee groups but no employee (there may be exceptions for some) receives staff travel until after their 6 month probation, other than to their home city if they have been forced to relocate. Pilots specifically, then have access to F/J/Y staff travel and can elect to confirm it twice per year, at a higher fare, and unlimited space available travel in all classes at all other times, so there is no need for you to remind anyone that it takes years and years of service before ANY (your word) staff member can access J because you are PLAIN WRONG. IIRC, it takes cabin crew 7 years before they can access J staff travel, but your point is moot. Also, if a staff member buys a higher cabin fare, it can be used for travel in a lower class (but not higher) and my understanding is that there is no refund, hence, staff buy multiple tickets in various cabins and use the appropriate ticket on the day, and submit the unused ones for refund when they return.

Ask any QF staff member and its a pretty even split between J and Y travel on staff travel through their career. Paying J passengers don't get shafted to Y for a staff member (although an exception may be someone like AJ, however this is unlikely and I only mentioned it before everyone attacks me with stories where it may have happened once or twice in 20 years).

This is very subjective and may I say, completely pointless. I know staff that dont travel Y at all and others that only travel J/F longhaul and aren't fussy with domestic Y and others that travel in the best cabin they can get on their preferred travel dates. I do agree that J revenue pax will not/should not be removed for staff and I doubt this happens other than in exceptional circumstances.

All being said and done, you really should reconsider posting with such authority on matters that you seemingly know little about.

Just my 2p worth......

 

[JohnPhelan]

I have certainly had restrictions suggested for my meal choices out of consideration for off duty staff in the business cabin.

Really? That's most inappropriate (and in contravention of QF rules for staff travel). I hope you lodged a complaint with the CSM and with QF upon landing.

 

[JohnPhelan]

And if operating crew are not operating that day they don't pax in uniform

This is correct (though you mean positioning crew at the start).

 

[ecg]

This is the reality and it does happen everywhere... but I think the OP's question surrounds whether staff should take priority over fare paying passengers and IMHO, they should not, other than for duty travel (where the company requires them to be somewhere) and not simply staff travel for any other personal reason. The reasons are two fold. People fly and accrue FF points with the expectation that they can redeem them for upgrades, meaning QF has earnt revenue from these passengers and in doing so, it incurs a future liability that must be remedied at some point. I think it is better to reduce this liability and reward a passenger that contributes to your bottom line.



Why shouldn't they? They make representations that they will give preferential treatment to their FF passengers, the higher the tier, the more preferential the treatment. Clearly they cannot upgrade everyone for the reason you describe, but what is the point of flying empty J seats (@T-15) when you have 'x' passengers willing to redeem some FF points for an upgrade that has 3 benefits of pleasing the passenger, filling the seat and reducing a future liability?. QF have made attempts to remedy this by offering ODU's and again the OP is asking whether fare paying passengers receive priority over staff, and as ive said above, I think they should.



I dont know where to begin other than to say you are flat out WRONG. Non duty staff travel is NOT an entitlement, it is a benefit, offered on a space available basis, exactly like passenger upgrades, which again goes back to the OP's question about who has priority. The benefit (not entitlement) varies between employee groups but no employee (there may be exceptions for some) receives staff travel until after their 6 month probation, other than to their home city if they have been forced to relocate. Pilots specifically, then have access to F/J/Y staff travel and can elect to confirm it twice per year, at a higher fare, and unlimited space available travel in all classes at all other times, so there is no need for you to remind anyone that it takes years and years of service before ANY (your word) staff member can access J because you are PLAIN WRONG. IIRC, it takes cabin crew 7 years before they can access J staff travel, but your point is moot. Also, if a staff member buys a higher cabin fare, it can be used for travel in a lower class (but not higher) and my understanding is that there is no refund, hence, staff buy multiple tickets in various cabins and use the appropriate ticket on the day, and submit the unused ones for refund when they return.



This is very subjective and may I say, completely pointless. I know staff that dont travel Y at all and others that only travel J/F longhaul and aren't fussy with domestic Y and others that travel in the best cabin they can get on their preferred travel dates. I do agree that J revenue pax will not/should not be removed for staff and I doubt this happens other than in exceptional circumstances.

All being said and done, you really should reconsider posting with such authority on matters that you seemingly know little about.

Just my 2p worth......

i'm glad that you've managed to disagree with someone without personally attacking them, unlike some others around here. i would like to clarify a few points.

Without giving too much away, pilots do not receive F travel. Only captains receive F upgrade benefits and they have generally been with the company for at least 25 years. For leisure travel, confirmed travel can be booked, but that is dependant on a certain fare bicket being available, much like U for frequent flyer redemptions. Furthermore, the ticket is only confirmed in economy and any upgrades are space available.

With regard to filling empty J seats, i believe qf prefers to fly with them empty then give tham away to point redemptions. If top tier frequent flyers knew they could always get a points upgrade then they would never purchase a premium fare. This would severely dent revenue as no one would purchase business fares. And because J seats woule be so cheaply available, any cash J fares would have to be sold much more cheaply than is available now. An extreme situation would be some of the US airlines which give away free space available upgrades to to top tier fruent flyers. Most of them have gone bankrupt, in fact just about all the US majors have gone through bankrupcy.

I honestly do not believe they care about future liability. They will never have to buy the points back and if qf goes bust the points don't mean anything, just like when ansett went bust.

 

[cwphoto]

Please do keep up. The question was ask how it is known that another passenger is a staff member/crew. That question was raised without reference to the ODUs. So that's is what is currently being discussed. All in response to questions raised by posts trying to distract with confusion. You will also see, if you read the thread, that I've detailed 2 cases were an upgrade was or would have been denied.

And if you want to go back to the topic at hand. As suggested by a number of posts in this thread, it is highly likely that staff do get upgrades in front of passenger willing to use points. Go ahead and quote official policy all you like the fact remains that many of us have experiences that suggest such a policy does not always get implemented.



Another who could try reading. Cabin crew have uniforms don't they? I have outlined conversations that involve cabin crew not on duty travel, due to not being in uniform.

Again try following the conversation and stop trying to distract and ignore the points clearly stated already. Selective quoting suggests an agenda.



Oh yeah? Given yours and the last 2 posts ignore the points I've raised. I think it is more fair to say that you are failing to follow this thread or perhaps have an agenda.

Try answering the question already raised, oh master of staff travel, do cabin crew on duty have to travel in uniform? Once you've done that then answer how it is that a person, with cabin crew luggage, not in uniform, discussing returning from their holiday and their cabin crew roster for the coming week was on duty travel.

Finally your suggestion that people are bitter clearly outlines how much you've failed to take in what people have written here. No one is bitter and such a suggestion is a disgrace.

Oh dear, really..

 

[LiamR]

To the T-15 past - completely incorrect. Qantas staff are only waitlisted in economy and will find out about J (in 95% of the time) once the flight is closed.

To your second point - wrong again. If you have been in J and all know so much about staff travel, you would notice that during meal service particular people may be skipped and not offered a meal and are served last - that's staff. Hardly seems "preferential"...

Woah, calm down. What you are I are saying is the exact same thing! Qantas staff are seated in economy, and find out about J at T-15, once the flight is closed....

 

[milehighclub]

Cabin crew do not have to duty travel in uniform. Some do because they didn't have enough time after the last flight or won't have enough time after to get changed. If it's a short domestic flight, I generally don't get changed. It's just easier.

Duty travel refers to anyone who is travelling for work related reasons. That could be a flight attendant being positioned to Perth, someone from inflight services observing the new service to Dubai or the the models that were not Sydney based flying there for the uniform launch. Most departments entitle staff to J space available upgrades, and some to F. Pilots for example in some cases must be confirmed in at least J.

Leisure travel is for personal travel, like holidays, visiting family or even for commuters. Within the various departments there are different rules on who gets what when. Everyone gets staff travel after 6 months and can buy domestic J upgrades straight away. If you buy a J upgrade domestically and do not get it, the most you will loose is about $30 return (not $100 as earlier mentioned) as the difference is not refunded. For international flights the difference is refunded if you don't get it.

Most staff need 7 years of service to buy J internationally and never get F. Some positions come with the entitlement of J travel (or F in some cases) regardless of the number of years you have been there (like CSM)

 

[Downwind]

i'm glad that you've managed to disagree with someone without personally attacking them, unlike some others around here. i would like to clarify a few points.

Thankyou. This is one aspect of this forum that I find distasteful and keeps me from contributing. Its also not very difficult so I don't understand why others find it so. Quite juvenile really.

Without giving too much away, pilots do not receive F travel. Only captains receive F upgrade benefits and they have generally been with the company for at least 25 years. For leisure travel, confirmed travel can be booked, but that is dependant on a certain fare bicket being available, much like U for frequent flyer redemptions. Furthermore, the ticket is only confirmed in economy and any upgrades are space available.

I believe I said pilots have access to F travel and have now confirmed that this includes their nominees. I know this because I am a pilots nominee and have just booked an F flight to LHR. He is not a captain, but a new hire with only about 8 months seniority. What little I know about confirmed travel is that its available twice per year and at a much higher fare than SA travel. I can't comment on whether or not it books into a specific fare bucket, but know that it confirms into the booked cabin and the seat is removed from inventory, the same as if it were sold commercially.

With regard to filling empty J seats, i believe qf prefers to fly with them empty then give tham away to point redemptions. If top tier frequent flyers knew they could always get a points upgrade then they would never purchase a premium fare. This would severely dent revenue as no one would purchase business fares. And because J seats woule be so cheaply available, any cash J fares would have to be sold much more cheaply than is available now. An extreme situation would be some of the US airlines which give away free space available upgrades to to top tier fruent flyers. Most of them have gone bankrupt, in fact just about all the US majors have gone through bankrupcy.

I know this is QF's preference but I think it is misguided. QF have this massive point liability, so I really dont see the difference between a Y fare upgraded with points and a regular J fare. Surely the Y + points combination must be equivalent to the J fare? The fact it would have an immediate impact on revenue is neither here nor there, as the reduction in point liability would offset it. Im not a fan of the US model with free upgrades (form an airline perspective)..... but that is not what anyone is suggesting. QF would receive payment from the FF business unit for the upgrade. Slightly off topic, but I find it quite offensive that I cant upgrade here and now, but have to wait until such a time that QF decide it cant sell the seat so it might as well pawn it off to some poor customer, sloppy second style.

I honestly do not believe they care about future liability. They will never have to buy the points back and if qf goes bust the points don't mean anything, just like when ansett went bust.

I know they dont care about the future liability, as they will just continue to devalue the points value as they see fit. What I look forward to is someone having the gumption to challenge them in court, as one of Lufthansa's passengers did when they devalued points by 40%. The airlines have created a monster and they now have to deal with it. They cannot continually squirm their way out of a liability that is entirely of their own making. My tolerance/patience with QF and the FF program is on very thin ice with regards to what I consider to be misleading and deceptive conduct, misrepresentation and breach of contract surrounding the continued failure to provide the advertised benefits associated with WP status. Its just not good enough!

 

[DAC1]

Try answering the question already raised, oh master of staff travel, do cabin crew on duty have to travel in uniform? Once you've done that then answer how it is that a person, with cabin crew luggage, not in uniform, discussing returning from their holiday and their cabin crew roster for the coming week was on duty travel.

Finally your suggestion that people are bitter clearly outlines how much you've failed to take in what people have written here. No one is bitter and such a suggestion is a disgrace.

"Master of staff travel" here - not necessarily. Flew SYD-PER last month next to a CSM positioning to do PER-BNE. Was the 565 and he was on the red-eye. Was not dressed in uniform. Only an example of what happens...

The ironic thing is that I would hear crickets if I asked most people here when was the last time they flew staff travel. Far too many DYKWIAs here who think Qantas owes the world to them and their points are worth millions.

Anyway from now ill just respond to anyone who makes sense or has half an idea about what goes on. "Master of staff travel" out.

 

[DAC1]

Woah, calm down. What you are I are saying is the exact same thing! Qantas staff are seated in economy, and find out about J at T-15, once the flight is closed....

Whoops partly my mistake! But staff aren't necessarily "seated" in Y, there are chances where even a Y seat isn't even confirmed until T-15

 

[LiamR]

Whoops partly my mistake! But staff aren't necessarily "seated" in Y, there are chances where even a Y seat isn't even confirmed until T-15

Depends completely on loads.

 

[DAC1]

Depends completely on loads.

Yeah that's why I said there is the chance of it happening.