Virgin Blue achieves record 93.8% on time performance in Oct.

[Yada Yada]

or Looking Sooo professional ...

Unfortunately, wearing a suit and tie when flying is an occupational hazzard...

 

[Yada Yada]

However legacy airlines such as QF realise that their days are numbered if they don't change drastically. JQ owes its existence to this very fact.

To expand on my previous comments, I found this article online today:

From: e-Travel Blackboard: Australia's Number One Industry Newsletter

Qantas sale may change the face of travel altogether
Thursday, January 04, 2007

The Qantas sale has been a topic that has been on everyone’s lips and questions have arisen about jobs, frequent flyer miles, assets and a whole flood of concerns, but one of the most pressing issues seems to be on the direction that our newly-owned national Australian carrier’s operations will take.

The most popular belief is, according to Wednesday’s Australian Financial Review, that Qantas might “look at the unrepentantly low-cost, no-frills business model used by Ryanair”. This belief is floated by the fact that the lead foreign investor in the Macquarie-led consortium bid – Texas Pacific Group – was founded by Ryanair chairman David Bonderman.

This influence may carried into the operation of a newly-owned Qantas and, along with the support of Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon’s commonly known desire to increase workforce productivity, may result in something similar to a spawn of legacy airline British Airways and world’s largest carrier, Ryanair.

If this were to be successful, Qantas may see its operations based on the Ryanair-model, resulting in more affordable travel on the national carrier, more competitive airfares and a complete revamp in the way that people fly. The customer service factor may be cut from the costs, even the travel agent and their commissions may be removed. This financial benefit for the passenger will be offset by complaints that services will be cut and the exclusivity of travelling on a ‘legacy airline’ will disappear.

This is not disputed by former Ryanair operations manager Michael Ryan, but he chooses to place it in a more positive light. He believes that many full-service legacy airlines will struggle to survive, purely on the fact that these government-supported airlines do not make any money and maintenance drains the government coffers to the point where their proud owners may have to abandon them. “These airlines operated for 50 years and never made a profit,” said Ryan. “The world is changing and people have to wake up to it.”

According to Ryan, the culture of flying is moving into a climate of low-cost and high-efficiency, meaning that if Ryan predicts correctly, the future will bring air travel on planes without window curtains and seats that don’t move. And all for the better, he believes.

“Someone once said we might have the lowest fares, but we have the most expensive sandwiches in the world, but that’s discretionary – passengers don’t have to buy them.” This pay-for-what-you-use mentality will eventuate into a way of flying that will make today’s culture of air travel as ludicrous as sitting on the bus with hot meals and reclining seats. So in which case, flying may turn into just another form of transport and, one day, it may no longer be considered a luxury to fly. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Only time can tell.

 

[stryker]

However legacy airlines such as QF realise that their days are numbered if they don't change drastically. JQ owes its existence to this very fact.

Unfortunately, Yada, facts (in the US at least) don't seem to bear out your hypothesis.

It would appear that once the low-cost, no frills airlines (which is what DJ is) start to take a significant amount of business from the "legacy" airlines, the better run ones have the muscle and the "smarts" to compete very aggressively (without setting up a nonsense airline such as JQ).

Just look at how AA, UA, US, CO and others are doing right now compared with the likes of Jet Blue and Air Tran, to name but two.

And and I do believe that Chapter 11 is a wonderful thing. Delta and Northwest will emerge much stonger and more competitive (notwithstanding any "mergers").

Pity Ansett wasn't an American airline, it would still be with us today providing great service.

The Americans, whatever you might think about their government, would never let a bloated little Kiwi kill off one of their national airlines (or even have a controlling interest in it for that matter).

So where's Little J's government taking us...?

 

[pauly7]

Thanks mt, I think you got the gist of what I was eluding to.

Haven't flown DJ for a few months, but I don't think they would have changed in that time.

The hosties (a generic term) may be over 18, but their target audience still seems to be under 21 (I guess this is modelled on Richard Branson's approach to selling CD's and DVD's, etc, etc).

When you want to get from A to B with the minimum of fuss, you don't need all that cough.

I have to say that Virgin has really improved their customer service over the last 6 months - probably based on complaints from passengers along the theme of posts on this board about over the top 'stupid funny' service.

I myself sent a complaint about FA's attempting to get the whole plane to sing and got a good reply that such behaviour is no longer 'encouraged' in an attempt to provide more 'subtle, good humoured service'. I have to say that this seems to have happened thank god.

As I'm forced to fly BFOD, I fly DJ, JQ, QF frequently and over the last six months have witnessed the following

- DJ service has really been toned down, more professional approach and seem to have employed a few people with IQ above room temperature which is great (have notice new faces on some trunk routes)
- QF has a lot of fresh new faces in the cabin and a huge improvement in general with more empathetic service. QF flight deck announcements are so much warmer and friendlier - it really feels great to be on a QF plane, you feel welcome and safe.
- JQ service in my opinion is very very similar to DJ - now DJ have toned their delivery down now - generally a younger crew who do a to the book job with a smile.

I've said it before I think we are lucky to have 3 decent airlines. If anyone here has to fly Ryanair or Easy Jet you will be SCREAMING back here in 10 seconds flat!

 

[acampbel]

.... I've said it before I think we are lucky to have 3 decent airlines. If anyone here has to fly Ryanair or Easy Jet you will be SCREAMING back here in 10 seconds flat! ...

I think it is more accurate to say that we have 2 decent domestic airlines - but one of them (Qantas) chooses to offer 3 products. The vast majority of my travel (business or pleasure) is in economy class, and on that basis the products offered by Qantas and Virgin are broadly comparable. In fact I quite enjoy the fact that they are different!

If money was no object then of course I would travel at the pointy end with Qantas, and if service was no object then I might consider Jetstar, but neither of these scenarios is likely in the short term. [Poor, poor middle-class me!].

I have flown RyanAir but I "got away with it" due to luck and some advanced warning about their baggage policy. I would hesitate to do so again (especially with my family in tow) and the stories I have heard about Jetstar seem to echo some of the scuttlebutt on RyanAir. Basically they are fine when things go well, but when the brown stuff hits the air moving device they can be found wanting.

Also, as someone born in the Land of the Long White Cloud I have to take exception with the "Kiwis killed Ansett" claim. Ansett was a lame duck long before AirNZ made their ill-considered move. It was only able to operate under the cosy cartel with Qantas, and was scarred badly in the price-war to eject Compass from the marketplace. The Australian government had sat idly by as Compass was hung, drawn and quartered (twice), so I suppose it should have been no surprise that they washed their hands of Ansett. The New Zealand govt was happy to follow their lead as bailing out AirNZ was hurting them enough.

So after some shoddy dealings and incompetence at all levels, we have ended up with a reasonably decent duopoly. A better result than we could have expected and I think some of the contributors to this site should be more thankful for it and less precious about their favoured child.


Cheers,


Andrew


.

 

[dajop]

I. Ansett was a lame duck long before AirNZ made their ill-considered move.

Yes, IIRC didn't TNT & News milk the cash out of the business well before AirNZ came along? Airlines I guess are always a good source of cash, but if not managed properly .... well, let's just hope QF isn't just used by the potential new owners the same way.

 

[AnonymousCoward]

I think that is a good performance by Virgin Blue. However Granted Ansett did have trouble when Virgin came here and Richard Branson stated this himself but I can't and will never forgive Air NZ for what they did to Ansett. I have travelled to New Zealand 5 times before and will NEVER go back again after what they did.I also wll NEVER fly Air NZ again and no members of my family will either, we will lead a campain for the rest of our lives telling people not to fly with Air NZ.It is a pity because when we have flown with them they have been good to us, but this will never happen again.

Wow.

AirNZ didn't get out of this unscathed. As I recall it almost went bust itself and had to be bailed out by the NZ Government. Ansett was bleeding AirNZ dry.

Whilst there might be lots of fault with AirNZ's management of Ansett, Ansett had its own problems (years of underinvestment and having too many different planes amongst other things).

Ansett Australia should still be in this country and I will never stop loving the airline that I only travelled with.I feel so sad for the former employees who are still waiting for the entitlements they are owed. Once again the government looked after themselves first by making a PROFIT from the misrey
of everyday Australians. They should hang there heads in shame and they should be held accountable for what they did.SHAME.

Ansett was a business - nothing more. And businesses sometimes go bust - many do every year. That's called competition. It weeds out those companies that don't have a business model that meets the needs of customers.

Whilst working for a company that's goes bust is pretty traumatic (been there, done that), it's still just a company and people need to move on.

 

[stryker]

I've said it before I think we are lucky to have 3 decent airlines. If anyone here has to fly Ryanair or Easy Jet you will be SCREAMING back here in 10 seconds flat!

Hi Pauly, I'd be interested to know if you have actually flown FR or U2.

I have, many times, and find them to be most professional outfits, with very new planes and extremely good fares. In my opinion, you get more than you pay for, unlike with DJ, which is really a no-frills airline charging QF prices.

For example, I am flying STN-DUB-LPL-SNN-STN later this month, and the all-up cost is less than AUD 70.00. And tell me when was the last time these airlines had a serious aeronautical incident (unlike others we could mention).

You can bad-mouth FR and U2 all you like, but you won't get the same value here in Australia, because it's back to a Government condoned 2-airline policy.

 

[stryker]

A better result than we could have expected and I think some of the contributors to this site should be more thankful for it and less precious about their favoured child..

But what if your own favoured child (or unfavoured for that matter) was killed off by the likes of (that horrible person) Sir Selwyn Cushing. We remember and we will never forget.

And, it should be remembered, that SIA offered to purchase Ansett lock stock and barrel, but Sir Selwyn vetoed it and then personally drove Ansett into the ground. I guess the conservative government in Australia backed Sir Selwyn (even if he was rubbing their noses in it) as they weren't prepared to have SIA compete with QF in Oz.

As an ex-employee of CASA, I have a few other conspiracy stories to tell if you like (who informed CASA of supposed Ansett engineering deficiencies, I wonder)?

 

[d15.in.oz]

Such an interesting direction this thread has taken….

What, today, is “low cost”? Low cost, to the consumer, or to the financier? And in this new world of carriers, what will consumers choose? “Choice” is obviously important, as is a $10 lead in price difference… but “what price service”? And what is service?

The federal government broadly monitors domestic air travel across 4 categories – discount, reasonable, “false” economy and “my d***’s bigger than yours”. Perhaps devised by a public servant not wanting to down-grade, but interestingly – in revenue terms, each quadrant is relatively equal! BTRE Transport Statistics

So where are the “real” opportunities in the Australian domestic market? Price, Service, Costs, Consistency…? The reality is, there is little either main trunk carrier can do positively or (more importantly) negatively (from a consumers' P.O.V.) to significantly effect market share, without a huge change in marketing direction.

So, who’s direction will change first, and which way will it go? The Ryan air model is working- but Virgin will introduce a new brand of aircraft to their fleet… AND Ted and the like are going for a Song in the US!

Impressively, Qantas has more to lose by going down market. But just like the banking oligopoly has realised - we can’t like it or lump it. But, of course, “lumping” it means AAT-Kings or Hertz!

Look at banks, which are only just today, starting to advertise “more customer service staff to open doors and stand up for you”… after a decade of massive branch closures and staffing reductions!

Here’s to air travel in Australia - a decade hence, when someone will once again see the opportunity in delivering “true” customer service…

 

[stryker]

Such an interesting direction this thread has taken….

What, today, is “low cost”? Low cost, to the consumer, or to the financier? And in this new world of carriers, what will consumers choose? “Choice” is obviously important, as is a $10 lead in price difference… but “what price service”? And what is service?

The federal government broadly monitors domestic air travel across 4 categories – discount, reasonable, “false” economy and “my d***’s bigger than yours”. Perhaps devised by a public servant not wanting to down-grade, but interestingly – in revenue terms, each quadrant is relatively equal! BTRE Transport Statistics

So where are the “real” opportunities in the Australian domestic market? Price, Service, Costs, Consistency…? The reality is, there is little either main trunk carrier can do positively or (more importantly) negatively (from a consumers' P.O.V.) to significantly effect market share, without a huge change in marketing direction.

So, who’s direction will change first, and which way will it go? The Ryan air model is working- but Virgin will introduce a new brand of aircraft to their fleet… AND Ted and the like are going for a Song in the US!

Impressively, Qantas has more to lose by going down market. But just like the banking oligopoly has realised - we can’t like it or lump it. But, of course, “lumping” it means AAT-Kings or Hertz!

Look at banks, which are only just today, starting to advertise “more customer service staff to open doors and stand up for you”… after a decade of massive branch closures and staffing reductions!

Here’s to air travel in Australia - a decade hence, when someone will once again see the opportunity in delivering “true” customer service…

Well said, D15.

I get the feeling that you mightn't be a long-term Australian resident, though. Nothing wrong with that, gives a different perspective.

If I got it wrong, please accept my profound apologies.

 

[Yada Yada]

In my opinion, you get more than you pay for, unlike with DJ, which is really a no-frills airline charging QF prices.

Sorry, I stll don't get why DJ is supposedly "no frills" compared with QF. What frills are missing?

 

[NM]

Sorry, I stll don't get why DJ is supposedly "no frills" compared with QF. What frills are missing?

Free beer or wine after 4pm on weekday Cityflyer flights
Free newspaper for morning flights
Free copy of "The Australian Way" magazine (ok, so now I am getting desperate )

I guess its a bit like asking what did the Romans ever do for us .... well apart from the sanitation, the aqueducts, roads, irrigation, medicine, education and the wine, what have the Romans ever done for us?

 

[N860CR]

DJ has evolved such that the only differences between then and QF are basically as NM has stated (although Virgin gives you a free copy of Voyer so that equals out The Australian Way!).

QF offer free meals, drinks on selected flights and a business class product. DJ match it in virtually every other aspect (connecting flights, baggage interlining, international connections from domestic flights (and the opposite), alliance with other airlines (both domestic and international), frequent flyer program, business lounge etc etc).

It's for these such reasons that DJ is vastly different to Ryanair and the like. DJ is better compared to the majority of "legacy" American carriers who these days offer a very similar product to the once "Budget" Virgin Blue.

 

[Yada Yada]

Free beer or wine after 4pm on weekday Cityflyer flights
Free newspaper for morning flights
Free copy of "The Australian Way" magazine (ok, so now I am getting desperate )

I guess its a bit like asking what did the Romans ever do for us .... well apart from the sanitation, the aqueducts, roads, irrigation, medicine, education and the wine, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Hi NM,

IMhO these are small things that have very little value. For example:

• Mealtime hours on QF are fairly short so for the most part, pax get a few biscuits and a cup of tea/coffee.
• When mealtime is on, there is generally no choice and what they serve is not great. Compare with the food on Virgin Blue where you get to select what you eat and drink, and the quality is great.
• If you are a member of the lounge with either airline, there is plenty of beer, wine, and spirits after 1:00pm, and food all day long, making whatever is served on board not necessary anyway.
• The Lounge has plenty of newspapers and magazines too.

So I don't see any frills on QF. For me, the seat costs less on DJ so if I choose, I can use the savings to select what I want to eat/drink, which makes it pretty even. I guess others may place more value on the QF meal service, but I find it quite poor and not worth the extra bucks, especially on short haul flights.

 

[StevePER]

Sorry, I stll don't get why DJ is supposedly "no frills" compared with QF. What frills are missing?

And I don't get why DJ thinks they have great service when you have to pay for every little thing.

All the little things you get on Qantas are insignificant by themselves, but they all add up to give a better experience, especially on a long flight.

• Complimentary meals, though I agree that the quality on DJ is generally better.
• Movie, to help pass the time (if it's good) or to help fall asleep (if it's bad).
• Drinks - alcoholic or otherwise. Messing around with coinage and receipts for a drink of water is annoying.
• QF have more flights at more convenient times.
• The QF lounge in Sydney is better.
• QF has a lounge in Perth, DJ does not.
• Generally QF has more staff on checkin so it is faster.

The only thing DJ has going for it is price. If I was travelling for leisure by myself I might consider flying with them, but I'm not going to make my wife put up with them.

 

[serfty]

Free Access to QP Lounge if you fly enough with them. ... (Yes, I know about DJ's 'Corporate +')

 

[dajop]

Free Access to QP Lounge if you fly enough with them. ... (Yes, I know about DJ's 'Corporate +')

This in itself (or what it represents) is pretty close to the main difference. I don't particularly mind missing out on the a free drink, nor the free biscuit or "meal" that QF provides, or the free newspaper in the morning. But the ability to earn access to not only the QF lounge but a whole network of lounges, get priority baggage privileges, access to priority seating on range of a carriers, access to business class international redemptions & upgrades are probably THE clincher for a preference to flying QF. But what I do find, once I've retained my QF status, is that DJ are a very attractive option.

Conversely I do like how on DJ you can affordably guarantee a little extra legroom (and importantly a little extra laptop work space) by spending $30, rather than chancing it for an exit row on QF (or paying '00's of dollars for a J seat).

 

[oz_mark]

The thing I find with QF from PER, is that I just find the widebody aircraft to be much more comfortable. In fact, I work around making sure I avoid the 737's in the Qantas timetable. Coming in at second place is that the QF timetable (even after taking out the 737's), suits me better.

To be fair, when travelling on the shorter hops on the east coast, I tend to be less fussed with which airline I am on.

 

[Yada Yada]

The thing I find with QF from PER, is that I just find the widebody aircraft to be much more comfortable. In fact, I work around making sure I avoid the 737's in the Qantas timetable. Coming in at second place is that the QF timetable (even after taking out the 737's), suits me better.

To be fair, when travelling on the shorter hops on the east coast, I tend to be less fussed with which airline I am on.

I agree that on the coast-to-coast sector, QF has advantages both in schedule and aircraft type, and a lounge. Virgin Blue really needs a lounge in PER. As I'm mostly flying between SYD and MEL/BNE, schedule is great and aircraft type is not an issue.

Last time I flew to PER I paid for an exit row on DJ and there was a spare seat next to me, so it was a very comfortable flight.