Virgin "enhances" redemptions, changes to points + pay

[MichaelD]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Even when the old pricing was up I'd usually be the only one in J. Occasionally there would be another Pax there, and very very occasionally they would be 4 or more on a 737. On the A330 I found the cabins generally 50% full.

Theres the hint that the product is overpriced.

I don't think so. Based on my somewhat limited data points, for the exact same sectors at the same time with Qantas I would expect the Qantas J cabins to be full or near full, and not only are they more expensive than Virgin, they don't give away J seats like Virgin was (and still is).

I believe they destroyed themselves with 737-700 planes with PE seating sold as J and are still destroying themselves with E190s with PE seating sold as J.

The status match got premium flyers to try Virgin and then they went ahead and p***ed off these exact same passengers by selling them PE product at J pricing and acting surprised when the premium passengers complained about it.

 

[Moopere]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I don't think so. Based on my somewhat limited data points, for the exact same sectors at the same time with Qantas I would expect the Qantas J cabins to be full or near full, and not only are they more expensive than Virgin, they don't give away J seats like Virgin was (and still is).

I don't disagree with you. But when I say overpriced, I mean for the product offered. I'm quite satisified with the product itself, a sort of J- if you like, but the pricing is wrong.

I believe they destroyed themselves with 737-700 planes with PE seating sold as J and are still destroying themselves with E190s with PE seating sold as J.

The status match got premium flyers to try Virgin and then they went ahead and p***ed off these exact same passengers by selling them PE product at J pricing and acting surprised when the premium passengers complained about it.

Yep. Hard to imagine how this happened. You'd have thought that they well learned this particular lesson with the failure of PE given the rogue planes. No one wants to play the premium ticket raffle. You pay the big bucks, you want certainty. This is probably more important to the premium pax than it is for the economy pax given their different motivations for purchasing.

 

[anat0l]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Agreed they should do something like this to allow people time to book / burn and adapt.... Or allow people to transfer points back out of Velocity (hell freezes over!!).

Yeah, Hell will freeze over before back-transfers are allowed. If anything, it'll just be Hell on Earth to convince the original points providers to put the points back (e.g. Amex MR).

I'm sure they are following this thread and something will be offered... Hopefully

Look out for another Velocity redemption promotion coming to you soon! They seem to be the order of the day at the moment (double credits, half-price upgrades, a Reward Seat sale, etc. etc.)...note - not being sarcastic here, just noticed to be common of late.

This would be the right thing to do. Transfers were made in good faith and the faith was broken. Despite any number of disclaimers and T&C I sure hope the ACCC is having a bit of a look.

Like oz_mark said, if no one raises it with the ACCC then there will be no need for them to look. Just saying it on this forum and expecting the ACCC to suddenly Google-crawl it and act on that is not going to happen.

Point aside (no pun intended), I think there would be some difficulty in bringing ACCC action against Virgin Australia in this case.

I don't disagree with you. But when I say overpriced, I mean for the product offered. I'm quite satisified with the product itself, a sort of J- if you like, but the pricing is wrong.

That applies equally to VA and QF. Purely market forces at play - and it works, for now. (That is, there are enough "suckers", if you will, that will pay the price to fly the cabin. For the rest of us, we have to use "tricks" or awards, because none of us will pay that kind of money unless it was cheap change for us).

Might not be as effective if every corporate policy (including extraction industry companies) switched to a strict Y only policy.

Yep. Hard to imagine how this happened. You'd have thought that they well learned this particular lesson with the failure of PE given the rogue planes. No one wants to play the premium ticket raffle. You pay the big bucks, you want certainty. This is probably more important to the premium pax than it is for the economy pax given their different motivations for purchasing.

The damage was done, but they did offer a number of people substantial refunds. I know that doesn't address the problem directly, merely remedial action after the sin.


I'm actually surprised that no one hooked onto this "before I did". Didn't expect to create a storm here...


The Flexi+upgrade method does look quite good economically speaking, though the extra on top just for SCs and points is not bad value per se, just pushing the absolute budgets of some people, including me (i.e. it's not a case of relative value, i.e. the value you get out of a $, but absolute, i.e. how many $ you actually have in hand).

 

[Moopere]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

The Flexi+upgrade method does look quite good economically speaking, though the extra on top just for SCs and points is not bad value per se, just pushing the absolute budgets of some people, including me (i.e. it's not a case of relative value, i.e. the value you get out of a $, but absolute, i.e. how many $ you actually have in hand).

I'll be going down this road for sure. But its annoying. I don't see, and never really have seen, the point of flexi's.... Savers are usually so cheap that if your date changes now and then you just burn the ticket and buy another one. I'll be annoyed if I get stuck flying a flexi that wouldn't upgrade for some reason or another.

The first few times I do this I can see I'll have to phone in to get reassurance that an immediate request for upgrade can be honoured.

 

[froggerADL]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

The first few times I do this I can see I'll have to phone in to get reassurance that an immediate request for upgrade can be honoured.

I suggest you do it EVERY time!

 

[froggerADL]

Actually, the Reward Seat redemption pricing table specifiies the minimum points

Points Tables | Velocity Frequent Flyer

I don't think the points have changed - just the ability to wind the scroller backwards below the specified minimums.

I think you are right Mark. And no business class redemption in that table has a minimum points requirement of 6,900 points. For ADL-DRW the minimum points requirement seems to be 33,800 for J, which it is now.

I think we should get real here. It was often cheaper to get a J points + pay than a ASA saver or flexi fare (if you don't believe me check ADL-DRW on 30 June). That was not published. We were lucky to get it while we did, so there's no point complaining now it's gone.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

OK - I am SUPER-CONFUSED........

If I redeem a points-plus-pay - I have two column options - I can redeem under the "Business Reward" column, or I can redeem under the "Business Any Seat" column (the latter being may more points and more cash).

What's the difference when both are available??

I don't earn SC's or points on either......or do I?

 

[markis10]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

OK - I am SUPER-CONFUSED........

If I redeem a points-plus-pay - I have two column options - I can redeem under the "Business Reward" column, or I can redeem under the "Business Any Seat" column (the latter being may more points and more cash).

What's the difference when both are available??

I don't earn SC's or points on either......or do I?

You dont earn points or SCs, and what you r seeing is classic awards at a fixed price and any seat awards that will vary in pricing with availability.

 

[anat0l]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

OK - I am SUPER-CONFUSED........

If I redeem a points-plus-pay - I have two column options - I can redeem under the "Business Reward" column, or I can redeem under the "Business Any Seat" column (the latter being may more points and more cash).

What's the difference when both are available??

I don't earn SC's or points on either......or do I?

You don't earn SCs or points on either.

The Any Seat column is basically always available (as long as there is a physically free seat on board).


In QFF parlance, think of the "Reward Seat" column as being the ASAs when they are at Classic or "near Classic" levels. The "Any Seat" column is the pricing when no more 'Classic' seats left.

In practice, it makes no difference. You'll only redeem Reward Seats when they are available, as redeeming for an Any Seat doesn't make much sense. If Reward Seats aren't available, Any Seats are the option if you're desperate.


Of course, none of these is quite applicable if the "why is that 'pricier' option less expensive" quirk happens.

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Thanks Markis10 and anat0l!!

I'm just figuring out my flight options for the xmas party

 

[lovestotravel]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I booked a few MEL-CBR-MEL flights for 13000 points and $70 back in January in J

NOW
34600 points and $0
OR
27600 points and $24.75

They value 7000 points at $24 ???

Strange and not happy!!!

 

[oz_mark]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I booked a few MEL-CBR-MEL flights for 13000 points and $70 back in January in J

NOW
34600 points and $0
OR
27600 points and $24.75

They value 7000 points at $24 ???

Strange and not happy!!!

But isn't that the sort of valuation that let you wind the points way back, and only pay $70?

 

[Fruitcake]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I booked a few MEL-CBR-MEL flights for 13000 points and $70 back in January in J

NOW
34600 points and $0
OR
27600 points and $24.75

They value 7000 points at $24 ???

Strange and not happy!!!

Not that strange - those $24 dollars are taxes - ie real cash that Velocity has to pay. Very different to the fare component of the points price where the internal transfer payment between Velocity and Virgin is undoubtedly much less than the cash sale fare of that seat. Using points to cover taxes is always extraordinarily poor value in any program.

Of course, shifting part of the fare into fees (via fuel surcharges etc) muddies the water significantly.

 

[obrienja]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Which was my initial hypothesis when I looked at the code behind the form last week. Now the maximum cash value you can have is the taxes. It'd be very easy to see this as poor website coding - but it's too convenient given that it gives Virgin a huge financial boost - as we now all potentially pay more for flights where we redeem points. I say potentially because chances are most of us will no longer bother so Virgin will fly around even emptier Business and "Business" cabins.

 

[lovestotravel]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

But isn't that the sort of valuation that let you wind the points way back, and only pay $70?

Not sure what you mean, but the best option now for Points and Pay in J is
27600 points and $24.75
Before
13000 points and $70

I'd much rather pay an extra $50ish and keep 14000 points............

It's an "enhancement" after all...

 

[lovestotravel]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Now the maximum cash value you can have is the taxes. It'd be very easy to see this as poor website coding - but it's too convenient given that it gives Virgin a huge financial boost - as we now all potentially pay more for flights where we redeem points. I say potentially because chances are most of us will no longer bother so Virgin will fly around even emptier Business and "Business" cabins.

Pretty much, I get that Virgin want to fill the cabins with paying J passengers, but considering the majority of flights I am on, J is either empty or only has 1 or 2 passengers they should be happy to have people in it, even if they are burning points.

Burning points means that people need to earn more points, how do they do that ? The large majority by flying.....................

Virgin have to be careful not to follow Qantas too much, they don't have that loyalty, nor the fleet, nor the lounges, nor the IFE, etc etc to have that attitude...

No more enhancements Virgin!

 

[oz_mark]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I booked a few MEL-CBR-MEL flights for 13000 points and $70 back in January in J

NOW
34600 points and $0
OR
27600 points and $24.75

They value 7000 points at $24 ???

Strange and not happy!!!

Not sure what you mean, but the best option now for Points and Pay in J is
27600 points and $24.75
Before
13000 points and $70

I'd much rather pay an extra $50ish and keep 14000 points............

It's an "enhancement" after all...

What I was saying is that you were happy with them valuing 14000 points at $50 before, but you are not happy with the valuing 7000 points at $24. To me the valuations are more or less the same!

 

[Coathanger]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

What I was saying is that you were happy with them valuing 14000 points at $50 before, but you are not happy with the valuing 7000 points at $24. To me the valuations are more or less the same!

Fair point. But, and it's a big but, the new scenario requires a lot more miles in the bank before you can redeem a J award.

For me it's this increased entry threshold that is causing the angst rather than the CPM valuation.

 

[smit0847]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Pretty much, I get that Virgin want to fill the cabins with paying J passengers, but considering the majority of flights I am on, J is either empty or only has 1 or 2 passengers they should be happy to have people in it, even if they are burning points.

Burning points means that people need to earn more points, how do they do that ? The large majority by flying.....................

Virgin have to be careful not to follow Qantas too much, they don't have that loyalty, nor the fleet, nor the lounges, nor the IFE, etc etc to have that attitude...

No more enhancements Virgin!

Agreed - if they aren't filling their J cabins now, I dont think decreasing the burn value will help!

 

[serfty]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Agreed - if they aren't filling their J cabins now, I dont think decreasing the burn value will help!

They trying to do this another way with the ½ cost points upgrades - increasing revenue therein by forcing Flexi fares.