Virgin "enhances" redemptions, changes to points + pay

[AdMEL]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

I think people are overreacting.

What's the bet that most people using this 'benefit' are of relatively low importance to Virgin (whether in spend level, status or not widespread) and that Virgin just wants to stop being taken advantage of.

As pointed out in this thread, Flexi + points upgrade isn't much more than what the points+pay was.

It just seems so childish to make threats/claims of moving there custom to Qantas.

I think you're correct - many of us would fall into the category of taking advantage.

I did stop short of saying I won't fly them because of this, but it's still disappointing.

 

[oz_mark]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Another 'enhancement' that appears to have been slipped in - redemption rates for J are increasing as of 1 July. Appears to be about 500 points each way, for the routes I've looked at (MEL-PER and MEL-BNE). E.g. MEL-PER increasing from 30,800 to 31,300. No mention of this on the Velocity website (still shows rates until 30 June), nor any notification received.

Whilst this increase is small, again, the lack of notice is disappointing.

Probably related to the carbon tax. In any case, I thought the published points for PER-MEL was more like 33,800.

 

[Moopere]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

As pointed out in this thread, Flexi + points upgrade isn't much more than what the points+pay was.

Its roughly double the previous cost from the West to east coast destinations for J class award tickets (if we assume no 50% promos for points upgrades)

I'm doing some rough comparisons right now, but QF, price wise, is back in the game for full or partial redemption tickets. On full revenue tickets DJ still appears to have a price advantage in J.

Good thing I hedged my bets til now and kept earning in QFF - was thinking about throwing my lot in with VFF completely. A timely reminder for me to never do that. All eggs, one basket ... never a happy ending.

 

[AdMEL]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Its roughly double the previous cost from the West to east coast destinations for J class award tickets (if we assume no 50% promos for points upgrades)

I'm doing some rough comparisons right now, but QF, price wise, is back in the game for full or partial redemption tickets. On full revenue tickets DJ still appears to have a price advantage in J

Some less competitive routes are now more than three times the previous cost - a good example of this is MEL-BME, which was previously 6,900 points + approx. $225 and is now $899 + points!

 

[pat25d]

Its roughly double the previous cost from the West to east coast destinations for J class award tickets (if we assume no 50% promos for points upgrades)

I'm doing some rough comparisons right now, but QF, price wise, is back in the game for full or partial redemption tickets. On full revenue tickets DJ still appears to have a price advantage in J

Flexi $299 + 9900 points to upgrade, but you will earn at a minimum of 1495pts or 2990pts as WP

So between 6910-8405 net points + $299 cash for a business fare which earns SC, compared to 6900 points + $180 for a points redemption.

Considering there are threads on here talking about how airfares are too cheap and how airlines need to set sustainable ticket prices, I am shocked at the response by some people on here.

Some people had a good deal while it lasted, now Virgin realises they need to change things to make it profitable.

Some less competitive routes are now more than three times the previous cost - a good example of this is MEL-BME, which was previously 6,900 points + approx. $225 and is now $899 + points!

Doesn't this raise any flags that Virgin are losing money by offering redemption seats like that?

 

[Moopere]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Doesn't this raise any flags that Virgin are losing money by offering redemption seats like that?

Not really. I'd assume they wouldn't offer such a fare below their cost. Whats the point of _buying_ market share to the regionals and trying to win BFOD Pax?

I'm going with the theory someone else posted a few pages ago ... shaving the fat off the pig until it squeals ... well, I'm squealing

Its just more work for me, I'm complaining mainly because of that. Recently I didn't have to price compare with QF, DJ had become the default airline of choice - now I need to do more work because the gap is no longer there. I just did a dummy PER-SYD-CNS for an upcoming trip and QF/DJ pricing is almost the same, either cash or redemption.

 

[cityloop]

Not happy Jan!!!

I travelled J OOL - PER in January this year.
Ended up costing me 13800 points + $433 (return)

Just checked to see what it would cost me now and the 'best' outcome is:
95600 points + $52 (return)

Sorry but this is an unacceptable jump in the redemption rate.

Many of these de-enhancements are taking the shine off Virgin for me. First the luggage issue and now a massive change to the points redemption.
I'm honestly not happy with Virgin and feel the gloss has been taken off their once innovative and progressive image.

 

[wafliron]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

It just seems so childish to make threats/claims of moving their custom to Qantas.

I assume that was at least partly aimed at my post just above yours.

With due respect, I don't think I'm being childish - I think the lack of respect shown for FFers by making such a change unannounced is poor form, and doesn't instill confidence in Virgin or their frequent flyer program. Because of that I decided to make a choice to divert flying away from them, as have several colleagues.

As I pointed out, I'm not trying to be argumentative or spiteful or throw a tantrum, or whatever) by saying that - in fact, I'm trying to be very logical about it, and point out that a decision they appear to have taken for commercial reasons may not, in fact, be commercially advantageous compared to giving reasonable (even a few weeks) notice of the change.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's certainly a possibility.

I think people are overreacting.

I think it depends how you look at it. The actual change is disappointing but fine, but the lack of notice is poor form on principle if nothing else.

What's the bet that most people using this 'benefit' are of relatively low importance to Virgin (whether in spend level, status or not widespread) and that Virgin just wants to stop being taken advantage of.

I possibly fall into that category re spend level, although I do spend a bit. Still, many individuals can add up to a lot.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I'm honestly not happy with Virgin and feel the gloss has been taken off their once innovative and progressive image.

I'd say some of the gloss has been taken off.

I'm still happy with the Lounge, the staff, preallocation, family pooling and fly ahead. When we start seeing those "enhanced", then I'll be seriously unhappy. (I am peeved about my planned BNE-BME family J rtn holiday though. That's not happenin' now.).

 

[repete]

Perhaps given some of the feedback and thoughts here, Virgin Aus could offer a special AFF code for a 'one day redemption special' at the old rate?!? Perhaps, also given some of the comments here, that may be a bit hard to execute in the back-end of their system!

 

[markis10]

Doesn't this raise any flags that Virgin are losing money by offering redemption seats like that?

It's been around for close to a year, and DJ have had a profitable year!

 

[cityloop]

I totally agree with all of these points Wafliron. I can understand small incremental changes to systems and programs, however major structural changes are a sure fire way of testing the loyalty of your frequent flyers and only leads them to look elsewhere to see if the grass is greener on the other side.

Hopefully it's all just a back end "coding" mistake and is fixed by Virgin next week back to the way it was.m

 

[AdMEL]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Hopefully it's all just a back end "coding" mistake and is fixed by Virgin next week back to the way it was.

Based on the comments by the Virgin rep in this thread, this is not going to happen!

 

[cityloop]

It's been around for close to a year, and DJ have had a profitable year!

We also need to note that whilst the passenger is using a 'low' level of points plus a decent amount of cash, Virgin 'wins out' by not having to award status credits points for what would otherwise have been a large SC earn on a flex or biz paid or upgraded seat.

 

[edy4eva]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Let's just set the record straight for those who think DJ was losing money/not making enough or needed to close down the so-called loophole.

DJ or QF fares are not cheap. They are expensive almost to a prohibitive level. Some with economist glasses might hint or argue that dom AU is a completely different market than the US or the EU. While in some respect it is, as a whole it isn't.
Australia is a vast country that makes air travel a necessity. It is not a luxury reserved for the few but rather the backbone of travel.

The market here is just large enough to sustain two major domestic airlines but not three. The reason lies in the fact that in order to justify operations, profits at a certain level need to be maintained. A 'weak' third airline will struggle to establish a foothold because of the large start up costs and the competition that the 2 very friendly airlines (among each other) can afford to stay in business and kick the 3rd one out.

It is astonishing how the current aviation industry can get away with making a coast to coast 4000 mile-run in J at almost $3000 appear to be a bargain, when in fact many airlines in many countries are willing to take you on a 20000 mile run in flat bed luxury for the same cost (for those who know which countries/airlines no need to mention them).

One can not but wonder what would happen if the industry here sold a return J to PER for $600 (which DJ did/does in a way using the points+cash option, there's the other way to purchase miles on a foreign airline and redeem them on QF in J) and half this much for economy?

Scaling this to a short 900 mile return flight on the east coast, J would be about $150 (that's fully flexible) and Y would be about $75.
These are the amounts that airlines can make while staying profitable for ultra long haul, so why would domestic be that much different?

Then we are made to think $100 for a SYD-CBR flight is OK to pay, $299 fully flexible is expected and for business $450 is a good price. But please for that much a chauffeured transfer between the 2 cities makes more sense (specially with more than just a passenger and the overall travel time).

These two examples (coast to coast and short routes) tell us that something is wrong with the whole fare structure. If it is overpriced for being an alternative to other transportation means and when compared to other markets, then it is prohibitive for being the major mode of transport.

As consumers, the bottom line is that we have little say or leverage on the industry. The ACCC will never see what is happening here as remotely fishy. But we all know something is fishy. More fishy is how the DJ rep here argues that such drastic changes to redemption levels needed to be made in the dark.

 

[MichaelD]

I travelled J OOL - PER in January this year.
Ended up costing me 13800 points + $433 (return)

Just checked to see what it would cost me now and the 'best' outcome is:
95600 points + $52 (return)

Flexi + upgrade has this at
$860 + 29800 points (actually 1/2 this at present - so 14900)

and you get back 8600 points as Platinum + up to 2560 on the credit card = nett points of 3740
AND you get 120 status credits.

$860 + 3740 points burned + 120 status credits earned NOW
vs
$433 + 13800 points burned + 0 status credits earned BEFORE

Doesn't seem quite as dire as you make out.

 

[jazza1971]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Hi guys,
Yes we have reviewed our points + pay redemption levels. To continue to be a profitable business, changes to this product had to be made, where the minimum levels had to be set and enforced.

All due respect to this and some other posts to this thread - we can't provide such sensitive information prior to the fact. Please remember that while we are good friends and a proud member of the frequent flying community, some things we just aren't able to share.

First up thanks for actually responding to this thread and I assume the PM I sent to you about it. I am probably not the only one from AFF, but I transferred over 200k points into VFF because of the value that the J points + pay offered up until a few days ago. I was quite happy to pay you guys extra cash for the privilege of not using as many points and looked forward to being able to maximise those points over a number of leisure trips (when was the last significant change to the points + pay. Now without warning that opportunity has been removed. This excuse about it being sensitive information yells bollocks to me, a hike is a hike, it was more likely not letting your VFFs know that you were about to make a massive change to the J points + pay program, and to perhaps stop a mad booking rush for the program that you guys have trumpeted about being the best value in Australia. Perhaps if you weren't going to make such a drastic change in one swoop that wouldn't had happened.

I think you guys are fundamentally wrong with what you have done in making such a drastic change to the J point minimums. Here we are VFFs paying minimum points + more real dollars for rewards seats that could otherwise be empty. What do you as an airline get, you get real cash for a reward seat that could have been empty and VFFs who are reducing their totals of points. After what I have been reading on this forum, there many flights in J which are sparsely populated as it is.

I in the last few months have been speaking the value of this program to a number of friends and colleagues and how they should think about VFF as a good place to use points from credit card transfers. Well I'll be making sure that I inform them that this isn't the case any more.

This whole episode has left a bad taste in my mouth and 140k ish of points that I think would be better served now sitting in another loyalty program.

 

[MichaelD]

ps Just as an observation, as I do understand that for many the absolute $ value going up is the killer in this argument...

This "enhancement" makes Virgin Platinum far and away the best tier to aspire to because of the four free J upgrades plus the 10 points per $ earned, and rather easy to obtain with a few Flexi + upgrade flights. Interesting contrast to Qantas where Gold is the sweet spot.

 

[edy4eva]

$860 + 3740 points burned + 120 status credits earned NOW
vs
$433 + 13800 points burned + 0 status credits earned BEFORE

Doesn't seem quite as dire as you make out.

So paying double to get 120 SC (pointless in many Gold/Platinum cases) while saving 10,000 points (that have now little relative value) is justified? What were these points for in the first place?! Weren't they created to be used as currency for future use?

This logic assumes abundant availability of upgrades but it is not. It also takes into account the 'for a limited time' half cost upgrades. But this isn't going to last. This is like forcing an addict to pay double to get the same product while trying to make him feel that it's still worth it.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Re: Very cheap business class points + pay redemptions

Another oddity I can't fathom is why the "Any Seat Awards" are priced like they are.

When I was looking at PER-BME for Sept. I see ASA price for saver is 6900 points burnt + $254. On the same flight, I can book and pay for a saver for $224 and a 1960 point EARN (gold) plus 15SCs. I'm not usually looking at ASA redemptions but I'm sure this oddity happens frequently. Am I missing something here? As I can't understand why anyone would pay $30 more for the privilege of losing 8860 points and 15SCs.