"... we'll shortly announce a major investment to improve our Frequent Flyer program"

[elanshin]

Well, if that was the question (which I don't think it is), I'd go for $10 of my groceries any day. For reasons obvious to most.

I think so most people would rather the grocery discount than $10 off potential airfares or even hundreds.

One of the biggest problems i think Qantas may not have thought of is while 1c per point might be "ok value" in their heads, but if their flights are significantly more expensive than other airlines, someone would now just book another airline.

Even clasic rewards need to be compared to competition for how much value you're generating. Like personally when I was deciding if I would use a 8k SYD - MEL hop I didn't convert vs QF but instead vs Rex or VA. At QF prices it was some stupidly good conversion rate 3.8c but against Rex, it was 1.7c which would make me weigh up pros and cons.

 

[clifford]

QFF loses money off people like you (and me) who analyse the cost per point redemption value and maximise redemption value whilst minimising costs.

I assume you have the official Qantas data to confirm this assertion...

 

[elanshin]

I don’t misunderstand you at all. QFF loses money off people like you (and me) who analyse the cost per point redemption value and maximise redemption value whilst minimising costs. They make money off customers who blindly transact and don’t think about the optimal use of points.

Despite consistently downgrading the value of the program every couple of years, QFF continue to see above system growth year on year. Every year we see prediction after prediction about how the latest change will be the death of QFF. Yours is just the latest.

It may genuinely change behaviours of the optimisers and gamers, but those extracting most value for least cost are, by definition the least profitable members. Loyalty programs are fundamentally about changing customer behaviours to improve profitability. If this change drives out unprofitable members then isn’t that going to help hit that $1b QFF profit target?

Super active in the program doesn’t always translate to super profitable for the program.

Actually i don't quite think thats completely true. They likely just don't make as much money off the savvy flyers.

You have to remember that there will be lots of people out there with banks of say 5k, 10k , 30k that really cant redeem properly along with all those that have the points lapse.

Also those billions of points out there represent Millions (billions maybe) of cash money in interest FREE loans. That alone is huge value. Your 1m points even if you eventually convert for 5c + per point is a free loan until you convert.

 

[levelnine]

Every year we see prediction after prediction about how the latest change will be the death of QFF. Yours is just the latest.

Your really do misunderstand me. My prediction is that Rewards+ confirms the continuation of classic award seats in meaningful numbers.

Loyalty programs are fundamentally about changing customer behaviours to improve profitability. If this change drives out unprofitable members then isn’t that going to help hit that $1b QFF profit target?

You misunderstand how an aspirational rewards program works.

Premium long haul business class award seats make money for the program by bringing more people into the program. Without them the program would, on the whole, be less profitable. They are what entice people to join and participate in the program by chasing points opportunities, and Qantas makes money on every point it sells to a bank/insurance company/supermarket.

This is particularly the case with airline seats where, in many instances, they would not be able to sell this inventory for cash, or only at a deeply discounted rate. Remember, Qantas do not release award seats on flights where they expect they'll be able to sell every seat for cash.

 

[Gremlin]

I assume you have the official Qantas data to confirm this assertion...

Have worked extensively in loyalty. Every program I’ve ever worked with has a segment of highly engaged but unprofitable customers (in rare cases, nominally profitable but insufficient to warrant an acceptable ROI). Some of my team have come from QFF and tell me that it’s the same over there.

But no, I myself have not worked with QFF data.

Btw, @levelnine rather amusing your assertion that I don’t know how an aspirational rewards programs works!

 

[Mattg]

QFF loses money off people like you (and me) who analyse the cost per point redemption value and maximise redemption value whilst minimising costs. They make money off customers who blindly transact and don’t think about the optimal use of points.

I would say that I'm pretty savvy with earning & redeeming points. I also think Qantas makes quite a lot of money from me.

Most of the time, if I'm booking a Classic Reward seat or upgrading with points, since the availability is capacity-controlled, Qantas is providing a seat that they don't think they would have otherwise sold at full fare. So the marginal cost of providing the reward (since QF controls the availability) is low. At the same time, Qantas has made money on the points that I've earned, and pockets a carrier charge every time I redeem for a Classic Reward ticket.

More to the point though, the fact I can see value in the program prompts me to engage a lot more, earning lots of points through program partners (which Qantas makes money from) and sometimes even paying a premium to fly Qantas over a competitor airline. I spend thousands each year on Qantas airfares, which I probably wouldn't if not for the frequent flyer program.

 

[Mr H]

Have worked extensively in loyalty. Every program I’ve ever worked with has a segment of highly engaged but unprofitable customers (in rare cases, nominally profitable but insufficient to warrant an acceptable ROI).

I suspect I am unprofitable for Qantas. Except that I have a high balance so I have loaned them a wodge of money for no interest, and I might die before I redeem my balance, so there’s still hope for them. Plus, I am a walking advertisement for their program, showing what can be achieved to people who may get points but wouldn’t have the patience to use them quite as creatively.

 

[SYD]

I would say that I'm pretty savvy with earning & redeeming points. I also think Qantas makes quite a lot of money from me.

Most of the time, if I'm booking a Classic Reward seat or upgrading with points, since the availability is capacity-controlled, Qantas is providing a seat that they don't think they would have otherwise sold at full fare. So the marginal cost of providing the reward (since QF controls the availability) is low. At the same time, Qantas has made money on the points that I've earned, and pockets a carrier charge every time I redeem for a Classic Reward ticket.

More to the point though, the fact I can see value in the program prompts me to engage a lot more, earning lots of points through program partners (which Qantas makes money from) and sometimes even paying a premium to fly Qantas over a competitor airline. I spend thousands each year on Qantas airfares, which I probably wouldn't if not for the frequent flyer program.

and that doesn’t include the higher tier benefits the FF loyalty program(s) provides. More to it than earn and burn (unless your solely a churner).

 

[harryhv]

10 investments we'd like to see for Qantas frequent flyers:

1. Qantas lounge reception will have additional rebooking staff who can also do fly ahead...
2. Fly-ahead - additional desks in the check-in area where staff will rebook gold and platinum flyers onto earlier flights when available
3. .. and while they're not doing that they will print boarding passes and check bags for all QFF members
4. A new section (with a phone number) whose job is to monitor schedule changes in partner awards and ensure tickets are reissued. Losing an award due to failure to reissue in time is a sackable offence
5. Like VA, Platinum members will receive 4 domestic-upgrades each year from the top economy fare to business
   
   And in the pigs-might-fly list:
   
   
6. Like AA and UA, Platinum members will receive 6 systemwide-upgrades each year from any fare class to business for international flights
7. Like most overseas airlines, $50 vouchers for lounge-eligible flyers in any airport without a lounge
8. Like Lufthansa and Air France, limos across the tarmac for first class flyers
9. QFF members to get a phone number which rings in Australia, where staff are familiar with the shortcomings of the QFF web ages
10. QFF adopts the AA award chart. For example 20,000 miles plus USD 27 for a Qantas business seat SYD-PER. Currently, thanks to its captive market QFF gets away with charging more than double that for the exact same seat
    
    
11. A credit card which earns AA miles, no that's too much to ask, the worthless QFF program would sink under the waves

 

[SYD]

10 investments we'd like to see for Qantas frequent flyers:

1. Qantas lounge reception will have additional rebooking staff who can also do fly ahead...
2. Fly-ahead - additional desks in the check-in area where staff will rebook gold and platinum flyers onto earlier flights when available
3. .. and while they're not doing that they will print boarding passes and check bags for all QFF members
4. A new section (with a phone number) whose job is to monitor schedule changes in partner awards and ensure tickets are reissued. Losing an award due to failure to reissue in time is a sackable offence
5. Like VA, Platinum members will receive 4 domestic-upgrades each year from the top economy fare to business
   
   And in the pigs-might-fly list:
   
   
6. Like AA and UA, Platinum members will receive 6 systemwide-upgrades each year from any fare class to business for international flights
7. Like most overseas airlines, $50 vouchers for lounge-eligible flyers in any airport without a lounge
8. Like Lufthansa and Air France, limos across the tarmac for first class flyers
9. QFF members to get a phone number which rings in Australia, where staff are familiar with the shortcomings of the QFF web ages
10. QFF adopts the AA award chart. For example 20,000 miles plus USD 27 for a Qantas business seat SYD-PER. Currently, thanks to its captive market QFF gets away with charging more than double that for the exact same seat
    
    
11. A credit card which earns AA miles, no that's too much to ask, the worthless QFF program would sink under the waves

At least 1 to 5 could have been prefixed with “Return of…”. These are things that used to exist. Even lowly QP members used to get annual upgrade certificates. But I might be wrong on that last one - certainly as a Gold member. @serfty might correct or agree?

 

[levelnine]

Btw, @levelnine rather amusing your assertion that I don’t know how an aspirational rewards programs works!

I know because I'm Alan Joyce. See, you can claim anything on the Internet.

Matt's reply provides a nice summary of why Qantas makes profit even on people who redeem in premium cabins on long-haul routes. Indeed, to be able to redeem on premium cabins on long-haul routes, you have to be super engaged in the program — either WP/P1 or someone who checks qantas.com daily. These are Qantas' most profitable customers.

 

[serfty]

At least 1 to 5 could have been prefixed with “Return of…”. These are things that used to exist. Even lowly QP members used to get annual upgrade certificates. But I might be wrong on that last one - certainly as a Gold member. @serfty might correct or agree?

Status based "Upgrade Certificates" were earned as one stepped through the status ranks; 1 on attaining Blue*/Silver, another 2 when attaining Sliver*/Gold and 2 more when attaining Gold*/Platinum. (& 1 or 2 more when requalifying.) They could be used on any one way domestic same day trip, even if multiple segments.

They could also be purchased with points; with these price varied on zonal distance and could be used on a single domestic segment.

These Upgrade Certificates could not be used internationally. Until 2001 there was no point/instrument based upgrade facility.

These were replaced by "Upgrade Credits" in 2001. With that an UC was awarded for every 250 SC's earned. This was changed to every 450 SC's a year or two later. They could be used for both international and domestic segments with the number required varying with distance.

Aflter May 2005, no more could be earned; they were replaced with the "Loyalty Bonus".

*Old, basically pre 2000, level names

 

[SYD]

Status based "Upgrade Certificates" were earned as one stepped through the status ranks; 1 on attaining Blue/Silver, another 2 when attaining Sliver*/Gold and 2 more when attaining Gold/Platinum. They could be used on any one way domestic same day trip, even if multiple segments.

Yes, I meant to say Dom only on those upgrade certificates. They were quite good if you knew how to maximise the value. SYD-PER was notoriously difficult but scored a couple. SYD-CNS once or twice.

I mentioned elsewhere that I found 3x old unused AN upgrade certificates the other day (and about 20 GW lounge guest passes).

 

[RichardMEL]

10 investments we'd like to see for Qantas frequent flyers:

1. Qantas lounge reception will have additional rebooking staff who can also do fly ahead...

not a QFF function. QF removed airport lounge and check in assistance agents

2. Fly-ahead - additional desks in the check-in area where staff will rebook gold and platinum flyers onto earlier flights when available

See above. Automation in app is supposed to do this in specific circumstances. Does apoear to give some sort of starus priority when I've used it.

Noting that technically general fly agead has been a feature for P1 on Flex fares only, vut in practice agents have often had more broad discretion - much more in the past than now (iirc there was an auditing crackdown at one point regarding use of overrides)

3 .. and while they're not doing that they will print boarding passes and check bags for all QFF members

see above. Also QF have done all that they can to remove domestic BP printing options. There was a very long thread on this unpopukar choice. Not coming back.

4. A new section (with a phone number) whose job is to monitor schedule changes in partner awards and ensure tickets are reissued. Losing an award due to failure to reissue in time is a sackable offence

Lol. This is NOT the issue. The GDS knows about changes - ue those generated flight change emails. You want this as a manual process across millions of PNRs let alone multiple platforms?

also not a QFF issue per se - the problem lies in the failure for (mostly offshore agents it seems being unable to reticket changes properly - and in a timely manner. From what I can ascertain they are queued for ticketing and posdibly if there's been an issue they get flaggged to the manual (aka Far) Queue. Now, imo, a technology solution is required here NOT manual to process these better - first to reduce problems introduced to bookings via changes, and to validate better and ticket. None of these shoould ever get to a manual queue in the first place. Yes, training also (how do these errors occur in the first place? What is it with the tools that general agents have that cause these problems?). The answer is not about more people but far better tools. Agents in HBA for example have both better knowledge and tools (and I daresay authority) to do all this properly. This is a complex but solveable problem which requires investment and effort. Imo.

5 Like VA, Platinum members will receive 4 domestic-upgrades each year from the top economy fare to business

as already noted by @serfty , this was a thing before VA came to be, and not just for WP but as soon as a modest amount of SCs were earned. then Enhanced. Then removed.

QF is unlikely to return to "free" uogrades like this. Clearly a choice was made years ago to not follow VA in this regard. pity. UCs were handy.

6. Like AA and UA, Platinum members will receive 6 systemwide-upgrades each year from any fare class to business for international flights

UA have not had SWU's for awhile now. They used to only be given to 1K members(higher than Platinum equivalent) and did not work for all fare types on international (excluded lower fares). Anyway replaced by GPUs and RPUs, then "PlusPoints" which have variable uses, and made available to UA Plat also. It's an interesting scheme - unsure if better or worse than the old SWUs but that's a discussion for another forum.

AA's SWU which used to go to EXP iirc now have changed how they're allocated (at various Loyalty Point thresholds). Not usable on all fares, but I agree most. Also BA too (UA's could be used on LH too which was great!).

Given QF's chouces re UC's and the like, not going to happen. Many P1 have wanted things like this for years but no dice.

agree though that would be nice perk for higher status pax.kel

8. Like Lufthansa and Air France, limos across the tarmac for first class flyers

Not a QFF function.

I see you're an AA fan. Cool. You simy can't equate the two in so many ways. Does it privide great value for QF rewards, specially domestic? Yes sure. It also exists in a totally different competitive environment. You're trying to equate apples with bananas. Still good luck with that wish.

As for offering a CC that gives AA miles? Talk to AA and the banks about that, not QF.

 

[jb747]

I know because I'm Alan Joyce. See, you can claim anything on the Internet.

If we’re talking aspirational, you need to aim much higher.

 

[Digicola]

Comparing QFF to US or EU FFPs is a non starter because the competitive environment is so different. QF enjoys a cushy 2/3 marketshare in domestic Australia with the lions share of high value high yielding customers and partners.

We’re talking any financial institution that issues cards (minus virgin money ofc), woolies, hoyts insurances, car rentals etc etc etc. QFF as an earn scheme is so big that even infrequent flyers are in on it. When it comes to actual status benefits, don’t forget that frequent flyer perks are a retention mechanism, there just isn’t any viable alternative to go to. The amount of BA golds or SQ golds in Australian are a drop in the bucket, the closest competitor is VA and they’re a very mixed bag with arguable worse benefits and no dangling carrot of a lifetime membership.

US and EU carriers have so many substitutes that they can only change and evolve to stay competitive with one another (read, not be drastically worse). QF can just sit and wait for the money to come in.

 

[drron]

10 investments we'd like to see for Qantas frequent flyers:

1. Qantas lounge reception will have additional rebooking staff who can also do fly ahead...
2. Fly-ahead - additional desks in the check-in area where staff will rebook gold and platinum flyers onto earlier flights when available
3. .. and while they're not doing that they will print boarding passes and check bags for all QFF members
4. A new section (with a phone number) whose job is to monitor schedule changes in partner awards and ensure tickets are reissued. Losing an award due to failure to reissue in time is a sackable offence
5. Like VA, Platinum members will receive 4 domestic-upgrades each year from the top economy fare to business
   
   And in the pigs-might-fly list:
   
   
6. Like AA and UA, Platinum members will receive 6 systemwide-upgrades each year from any fare class to business for international flights
7. Like most overseas airlines, $50 vouchers for lounge-eligible flyers in any airport without a lounge
8. Like Lufthansa and Air France, limos across the tarmac for first class flyers
9. QFF members to get a phone number which rings in Australia, where staff are familiar with the shortcomings of the QFF web ages
10. QFF adopts the AA award chart. For example 20,000 miles plus USD 27 for a Qantas business seat SYD-PER. Currently, thanks to its captive market QFF gets away with charging more than double that for the exact same seat
    
    
11. A credit card which earns AA miles, no that's too much to ask, the worthless QFF program would sink under the waves

Speaking as a QFF LTB- well i do have LTQP - I would hope all your suggestions are pie in the sky.

And as to classic awards My experience in the last 24 hours has been comparing J awards from SIN to SYD. This would be our most flown segment though again can always get SQ J awards into BNE.
So from my account. No J awards on QF right out to the end of release dates. The last 4 days I could get CR in Y and some in PE. Flying via Taiwan. In January I could get 2 J awards on JQ. via MEL on 1 day, DPS one day and the last via CGK.

Then I used mrsdrron's account sadly now LTG. Exactly the same for February. But she could get 2 J awards in January on JQ on 6 days and PER was an extra option on 1 day.

So then I went to my AA account where I am LTP. Awards only released out to 26/1/25. But on several days in January I was offered 2 J awards either via HND or NAN. And unlike QFF at exactly the same number of points as direct flights. Oh how glad I am that I ditched QFF as my go to loyalty program.
And by the way I would love to fly SIN-SYD via HND on JL.

 

[tdimdad]

The question becomes: would you prefer $10 off your flight or $10 off your shopping?

Here we come to the question of us valuing the points differently. I attach a higher value to the points at redemption.

Yes, the QFF points earnt through WWR I price at 1c each based on the option to convert the 2,000 WWR points to $10 discount in the shop or QFF points. But my baseline calculation for the value of 1,000 QFF points is a 8,000 redemption of a $159 e-deal cash fare less fees = 8,000 QFF equals about $120 = 1.5c/point when redeemed. This leads me to favour the WWR -> QFF conversion as it's higher value to me than the discount at the WW checkout.

But YMMV based on the baseline variable you set.

 

[Mr H]

Here we come to the question of us valuing the points differently. I attach a higher value to the points at redemption.

Yes, the QFF points earnt through WWR I price at 1c each based on the option to convert the 2,000 WWR points to $10 discount in the shop or QFF points. But my baseline calculation for the value of 1,000 QFF points is a 8,000 redemption of a $159 e-deal cash fare less fees = 8,000 QFF equals about $120 = 1.5c/point when redeemed. This leads me to favour the WWR -> QFF conversion as it's higher value to me than the discount at the WW checkout.

But YMMV based on the baseline variable you set.

It's only worth 1.5c per point if you would actually have paid $159 for the flight you took. If you would have flown a cheaper airline or not flown at all, you need to mentally discount the headline price that you ‘saved’. You also need to discount for the fees and taxes you pay on award tix.

 

[wandering_fred]

The only announcement I would like to see is that QF will follow the EU/UK 261 guidelines for QF and JQ flights which either depart from to arrive into Australian airports. Even if restricted to flights credited to a QFF account.

I know..... Way too much wandering
Fred