What does an ASA really cost.

[Jack_OC]

Dfcatch - seems like you haven't read the start of the thread. The analysis that compared the cost of SCs from a JASA to that from cash fares was Medhead's, not mine. As I said, I was simply responding to what Medhead wrote, and pointing out what I see as flawed assumptions used in that analysis. If you feel the entire premise of Medhead's analysis was flawed, that's fair enough, but I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

 

[dfcatch]

Dfcatch - seems like you haven't read the start of the thread. The analysis that compared the cost of SCs from a JASA to that from cash fares was Medhead's, not mine. As I said, I was simply responding to what Medhead wrote, and pointing out what I see as flawed assumptions used in that analysis. If you feel the entire premise of Medhead's analysis was flawed, that's fair enough, but I'm not sure why you're quoting me.

The way I read your points - you're comparing what Medhead paid as a JASA (with points calculation and cash component) compared to the EQUIVALENT flight as a cash fare.

My point is that Medhead wouldn't have considered an equivalent cash fare as an alternative, he would have either taken a Classic or the cheapest Red-eDeal available.

We can certainly debate his points-valuation, and I personally would value them lower, but QF still received far more from him with a JASA redemption than him purchasing a Red-eDeal.

I read that from his post - and on that front, I would most certainly agree.

Were JASAs a good-value earn of SC's - Absolutely.

But was it rorting or "ripping QF off" - hardly.

 

[Jack_OC]

The way I read your points - you're comparing what Medhead paid as a JASA (with points calculation and cash component) compared to the EQUIVALENT flight as a cash fare.

As I said, Medhead made the comparison! I just responded to the analysis he (or she?) presented. To repeat, it was not my analysis, I just commented on the assumptions that went into the analysis. You seem to agree with my view on one of the key assumptions (the cost of a point), yet you constructed your post as if you're disagreeing with me! Bizarre!

Were JASAs a good-value earn of SC's - Absolutely.

But was it rorting or "ripping QF off" - hardly.

Fully agree. I said as much a couple of times further up.

 

[Flying mermaid]

This thread prompted me to go and look at some of my trips - I think my report card needs to be marked "must try harder!". My best is the upcoming trip to Africa where I bought the fares last year on a sale - that works out at $12.50 per status credit. Our around the world earlier in the year is over $14 per status credit and some fares I have bought in the last year for Master FM and his partner are more around $25 per status credit (they are chronically disorganised and fly at Easter and Christmas with minimal lead times).

 

[amaroo]

This thread prompted me to go and look at some of my trips - I think my report card needs to be marked "must try harder!". My best is the upcoming trip to Africa where I bought the fares last year on a sale - that works out at $12.50 per status credit. Our around the world earlier in the year is over $14 per status credit and some fares I have bought in the last year for Master FM and his partner are more around $25 per status credit (they are chronically disorganised and fly at Easter and Christmas with minimal lead times).

A couple of other examples;

1) We did a BA special four years ago - pay J fly F return. Cost = $8.923 BNE-SYD-LHR-MAD ... CDG-LHR-BKK-SYD-BNE returned 960SC @ $9.30/SC.

2) QF special to USA two years ago - J. Cost = $6,030 BNE-SYD-LAX-JFK ... DFW-BNE returned 480SC @ $12.56/SC.

They don't come within a bull's roar compared to the recent ASA I posted upthread .... 920SC @ $5.68/SC

 

[basso]

SCs are not free.

Provide some evidence that Qantas actually sell them.

 

[basso]

QF assigns a value per point. The legitimate question revolved around the Internal Cost of Redemption.

The Internal Cost? That would be the pittance that appeared in your account when you cancelled a MASA. That small number that everyone complained about was the internal cost.

What is not in question - is that QF received from those JASAs EXACTLY the points-value-currency that they wanted for that seat as a Classic Award together with a co-pay that was HIGHER as a JASA than a Classic Redemption, which goes toward compensating QF for the points/SCs.

Maybe - but the people that claim it proves it is 'not a shortcut' are trying to make out that all those dollars were coming out of there own pocket. The funds were not, and that is what made them value for money. Good for the customer, but not good for the airline. If it was good, all the other airlines would have followed suit in selling the things.

 

[dfcatch]

Provide some evidence that Qantas actually sell them.

I don't have those internal figures - but QF Management have made public comments on this issue at events.

Additionally - I'm sure if you look hard enough, you'll find some alliance-related documents that detail the commercial arrangements between Marketing Carriers, Operating Carriers and FF Programs for the crediting/payments of points and SCs.

The Internal Cost? That would be the pittance that appeared in your account when you cancelled a MASA. That small number that everyone complained about was the internal cost. Maybe - but the people that claim it proves it is 'not a shortcut' are trying to make out that all those dollars were coming out of there own pocket. The funds were not, and that is what made them value for money. Good for the customer, but not good for the airline. If it was good, all the other airlines would have followed suit in selling the things.

Ahh - again - not so simple.

QF received exactly what they were asking for the seat in question - plus extra.

The question is whether the "extra" adequately paid for the SC/points earn. I would say yes.

However - to the untrained RM who is NOT loyalty-inclined, the redemption of mASAs was never what was intended nor modelled. ASAs were designed to rip-off points-rich brains-poor FF members who were willing to redeem at a ridiculously low points-value (the pittance you mention). BTW - an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT margin calculation to what QF values points on a Classic Redemption. So the "pittance" you quote is not actually relevant in the context we are talking.

QF themselves termed ASA redemptions at Classic levels as "marginal" - that's where the term came from.

They were less of a shortcut to status than many other cash-based status runs which are still possible.

What they were - was an anomaly that was never modelled by QF and therefore got many panties twisted when they realised that they were being utilised.

Whether QF "needed" to worry about it at all - is a totally different question.

You still needed to burn a ridiculous volume of points to actually achieve much with a mASA.


EDIT: Correction - the one nice thing about mASAs was that their distance calculation was different than that used for Classic Awards.

For example - a SYD-LAX redemption in J was 96K. But as a mASA you could do AKL-SYD-LAX for only 84K.

There were a couple of anomaly sweet-spots that made mASAs attractive for more than just SC earn.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Provide some evidence that Qantas actually sell them.

JQ bundles. The bundle covers the cost of SCs, points and lounge access.

 

[JohnK]

Were JASAs a good-value earn of SC's - Absolutely.

One way street.

But was it rorting or "ripping QF off" - hardly.

Not rorting. Not cheating. Not even abuse.

But Qantas were seriously ripping themselves off. They did not realise what they had created with marginal any seat awards and double SCs. It doesn't take long to work out the best value but the biggest mistake on this forum was bragging about it which alerted Qantas to their mistake.

We already know that someone earned Platinum One for ~$4,500 + ~450,000 QFF points which at best are worth $3,150 but more than likely not worth very much at all. Please don't tell me you think Qantas was not getting ripped off?

 

[trixydoza]

the biggest mistake on this forum was bragging about it which alerted Qantas to their mistake

I hope you'll take your fair share of the credit if and when QF move to a revenue-based earning system.

 

[JohnK]

I hope you'll take your fair share of the credit if and when QF move to a revenue-based earning system.

Why? You give me way too much credit.

And if that happens I am assuming that will be the end of my status chasing days leaving with me Lifetime Gold. Hopefully at some point Platinum status means something again and not the poor excuse that it has become.

 

[trixydoza]

Why?

It's the logical conclusion of your insistent babble to the effect of "That person hasn't spent enough to legitimately earn xx_ status".

 

[JohnK]

It's the logical conclusion of your insistent babble to the effect of "That person hasn't spent enough to legitimately earn xx_ status".

Nothing logical about that conclusion. You do love to attack individuals. Enough is enough.

 

[medhead]

As I said, Medhead made the comparison! I just responded to the analysis he (or she?) presented. To repeat, it was not my analysis, I just commented on the assumptions that went into the analysis. You seem to agree with my view on one of the key assumptions (the cost of a point), yet you constructed your post as if you're disagreeing with me! Bizarre!

Fully agree. I said as much a couple of times further up.

Still you have questioned the validity of my comparison. For the record the vast majority of my flights are on red-e-deals. So that all flights number is the cost per SC predominately for red-e-deals. As it turns out, I was paying basically the same for JASA as I do for red-e-deals. You've mentioned the reduced earning under simpler and fair, I guess that shows qantas didn't think red-e-deal earn was good enough. Their choice. My choice is to now seek out $4 or lower per SC. Quid pro quo. But this is all way off topic.

Provide some evidence that Qantas actually sell them.

QF have publicly said there is a cost for SC. Qantas group sells SC.

Nothing logical about that conclusion. You do love to attack individuals. Enough is enough.

Yet that is also my take home message of your comments about cheap status.

 

[wandering_fred]

Why? You give me way too much credit.
And if that happens I am assuming that will be the end of my status chasing days leaving with me Lifetime Gold. Hopefully at some point Platinum status means something again and not the poor excuse that it has become.

As if the airlines with FF programs of Silver Gold and Platinum won't someday change to Ruby Sapphire and Emerald with no status for the old names...
It would be simpler and fairer, wouldn't it?

Happy wandering

Fred

 

[SQ421]

One way street.


Not rorting. Not cheating. Not even abuse.

But Qantas were seriously ripping themselves off. They did not realise what they had created with marginal any seat awards and double SCs. It doesn't take long to work out the best value but the biggest mistake on this forum was bragging about it which alerted Qantas to their mistake.

We already know that someone earned Platinum One for ~$4,500 + ~450,000 QFF points which at best are worth $3,150 but more than likely not worth very much at all. Please don't tell me you think Qantas was not getting ripped off?

I don't think Qantas needed to read this forum to realize that their marginal ASA's were creating Platinum One's at a fraction of anticipated QF Spend that they'd modeled for someone to reach P1.

Plenty of Analytics that will do that for them.

 

[medhead]

We already know that someone earned Platinum One for ~$4,500 + ~450,000 QFF points which at best are worth $3,150 but more than likely not worth very much at all. Please don't tell me you think Qantas was not getting ripped off?

Again you bang on about the worth of a point, while ignoring the important question: how much cash money does qantas get for a point? It is certainly more than the number your using. The value a customer can achieve has nothing to do with the money Qantas makes, the QFF profit depends on selling points high and buying them back low. Using the low buy back price tells us ZERO about Qantas getting ripped off.

The Internal Cost? That would be the pittance that appeared in your account when you cancelled a MASA. That small number that everyone complained about was the internal cost. Maybe - but the people that claim it proves it is 'not a shortcut' are trying to make out that all those dollars were coming out of there own pocket. The funds were not, and that is what made them value for money. Good for the customer, but not good for the airline. If it was good, all the other airlines would have followed suit in selling the things.

Going way off topic, not to correct grammar. But you don't seem to know how the points system works. Qantas sells points wholesale to other people to then on sell. In the case of credit card providers, a story in the newspaper recently estimated the interchange fee take by banks at $2 Billion per year. Those $2 billion are not being created from thin air. Instead they are coming from someone's pocket, I'd bet those $$$ come from the customers pocket in higher prices. Overall, yes I "pay" for my points as a dreaded consumer, and Qantas gets my money for those points. QFF makes a profit by then buying back those points for less than they sold them.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don't think Qantas needed to read this forum to realize that their marginal ASA's were creating Platinum One's at a fraction of anticipated QF Spend that they'd modeled for someone to reach P1.

Plenty of Analytics that will do that for them.

No - but I could quite easily see how a forum such as AFF would point out the issue very easily.

 

[JohnK]

I don't think Qantas needed to read this forum to realize that their marginal ASA's were creating Platinum One's at a fraction of anticipated QF Spend that they'd modeled for someone to reach P1.

Plenty of Analytics that will do that for them.

Yet some people continue to argue that any seat awards were profitable for Qantas.