What would you like to see on the new IFE System?

[greenfish]

Personally don't care how they deliver it (classic IFE, tablets, wifi etc), but it really should work "gate to gate" to compete with Qantas on their refurbed/new 737-800s. It should be fitted to the Embraers, as these fly routes where they compete head-on with QF 737s e.g. my favourite, BNE-CBR.

I'm a big fan of the new QF IFE - my only QF flight last week was on a refurbed 737-800 CBR-BNE, and it was just great being able to watch entertainment gate to gate, while leaving my tray clear for work. If the QF IFE was guaranteed CBR-BNE, I doubt I'd bother with DJ in that direction. BNE-CBR I'm always attempting to find another hours sleep, so not bothered about IFE.

 

[maninblack]

And they're going broke...

Who would have thought that an airline that overcapitalises on hard product in such a way that it doesn't generate enough revenue to pay for itself would struggle financially?

I agree that Virgin's current IFE mix sucks (see my comments earlier in this thread) however i understand the logic that they won't spend money that doesn't make them money. That's business 101.

Air Canada has been going broke for years but their financial plight has little directly to do with the refurb they did on their aircraft a few years ago, they have much larger and more complex financial issues to overcome than the cost of TV screens. It's a problem somewhat beyond EC101.

 

[markis10]

Air Canada has been going broke for years but their financial plight has little directly to do with the refurb they did on their aircraft a few years ago, they have much larger and more complex financial issues to overcome than the cost of TV screens. It's a problem somewhat beyond EC101.

I am not so sure that you can say the refurb had little to do with their woes, given they have a market cap of 223M only, and had 241 odd aircraft that had IFE fitted at a cost of $5M an aircraft in 2006 by Thales (capital cost not opportunity cost that takes into account the TCO of downtime), probably poor timing in light of the GFC and what they could be doing with that cash today!

 

[maninblack]

I am not so sure that you can say the refurb had little to do with their woes, given they have a market cap of 223M only, and had 241 odd aircraft that had IFE fitted at a cost of $5M an aircraft in 2006 by Thales (capital cost not opportunity cost that takes into account the TCO of downtime), probably poor timing in light of the GFC and what they could be doing with that cash today!

I respectfully question the source of your figures. According to documents lodged with the TSX the overall cost of the refurb was around $450M for 185 aircraft over 3 years. Last year AC had $12b in revenues but a $3.4b fuel bill and a $2b wages bill for starters. Whilst the cash spent on the refurb may be handy to have it is not considered a huge or crippling item that is being blamed as the source of AC's woes by analysts who follow Air Canada stock. In fact it has generally been viewed positively. AC's financial issues are far more complex.

 

[777]

I respectfully question the source of your figures. According to documents lodged with the TSX the overall cost of the refurb was around $450M for 185 aircraft over 3 years. Last year AC had $12b in revenues but a $3.4b fuel bill and a $2b wages bill for starters. Whilst the cash spent on the refurb may be handy to have it is not considered a huge or crippling item that is being blamed as the source of AC's woes by analysts who follow Air Canada stock. In fact it has generally been viewed positively. AC's financial issues are far more complex.

I think you're missing the point about Virgin here. Would it be worth, say, $200m to requip the Virgin domestic fleet with seat back IFE? Would they get their money back?

 

[lovestotravel]

I'm reserving judgement until I see this new wifi thing in action. Its very easy to cling to the old (AVOD) because it is known and lets face it no-one really has a clear idea of what this wifi thing will entail so it's equally hard to get behind it. But I am one for change IF the change is an improvement. Tablet pc's as a concept have been around for 10yrs but they've only been usable for 2yrs. If you asked anyone in 2008 whether they'd buy a tablet the answer would have been hell no! The iPad and clones are selling like fresh baked bread now though. It takes the right implementation to make anything worthwhile.

There is nothing to see.

No in-seat power (well it seems 1 or 2 aircraft have it in J)

The FA's struggle as it is to finish meal/drinks on the fuller flights, and handing out 20-60 portable IFE devices is only going to make this worse

Brand new planes delivered with no in-seat power

FAIL

 

[lovestotravel]

I respectfully question the source of your figures. According to documents lodged with the TSX the overall cost of the refurb was around $450M for 185 aircraft over 3 years. Last year AC had $12b in revenues but a $3.4b fuel bill and a $2b wages bill for starters. Whilst the cash spent on the refurb may be handy to have it is not considered a huge or crippling item that is being blamed as the source of AC's woes by analysts who follow Air Canada stock. In fact it has generally been viewed positively. AC's financial issues are far more complex.

That cost also included new seats, new J class and everything else correct ?

Not just seat-back TV's.................

 

[dk4]

Jetstar embedded on their new A330s




Although that's probably more to do with making the aircraft hot-swappable between Jetstar International and Qantas Domestic.

But let's face it, since Westjet and Virgin Australia, two airlines with extensive experience in Buy On Board, embedded In Flight Entertainment, each started ordering aircraft without embedded technology, it is doubtful that they see a future opportunity for an acceptable return on that type of IFE investment. (Even Jetstar only deploys tablets for IFE on "selected aircraft" on longer short haul routes.)

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Even Jetstar only deploys tablets for IFE on "selected aircraft" on longer short haul routes.

JQ is unashamably LCC. DJ use the LCC tag when it suits them (ala ife, pay for food etc) but seem to be ignoring LCC when it comes to fares levied. Can't have your cake and eat it too!

 

[Fruitcake]

JQ is unashamably LCC. DJ use the LCC tag when it suits them (ala ife, pay for food etc) but seem to be ignoring LCC when it comes to fares levied. Can't have your cake and eat it too!

Unfortunately, you can if you're still filling the seats!

 

[Deleted member 29185]

Unfortunately, you can if you're still filling the seats!

So true. No argument there from me! Perhaps I should rephrase to "can have your cake and eat it too........except for when the penny drops with the mass mug punters"!

 

[maninblack]

I think you're missing the point about Virgin here. Would it be worth, say, $200m to requip the Virgin domestic fleet with seat back IFE? Would they get their money back?

The cost would be more like $100M so yes I would say it would stack up for them quite readily through both justifiable ticket pricing given the service they would be offering and potential advertising revenues given an audience of about 15 million captives per year.

Depends where they want to place themselves in the marketplace. Currently they are a LCC with a few added features.

 

[dk4]

JQ is unashamably LCC. DJ use the LCC tag when it suits them (ala ife, pay for food etc) but seem to be ignoring LCC when it comes to fares levied. Can't have your cake and eat it too!

This is hilarious, there are not merely two simple extremes, of business model, in the airline industry. (It's either a "LCC" OR a "Full Service Carrier".) IME it is a vibrant industry of greys, with very few blacks and whites.

By your standards, because an airline gives me this

as an In Flight Entertainment solution, it should be derided as "LCC"...

...even though they give me one of these to sit/sleep in,

and something onboard like this to eat.

Extending that logic to its fullest extreme, then Qantas is a "LCC", because all truly "Full Service" carriers should offer onboard showers to First Class passengers, and Qantas doesn't. The black and white ends of the scale simply don't exist in this country, everything here is a shade of grey, and it gets even greyer the more you travel the world.

 

[markis10]

The cost would be more like $100M so yes I would say it would stack up for them quite readily through both justifiable ticket pricing given the service they would be offering and potential advertising revenues given an audience of about 15 million captives per year.

Depends where they want to place themselves in the marketplace. Currently they are a LCC with a few added features.

Rubbish, the TCO would be closer to $300M when you factor in downtime, and they are pretty familiar with the advertising revenues from LTA which were so lucrative it's gone!

 

[Deleted member 29185]

This is hilarious, there are not merely two simple extremes,

Couldn't agree more.......on both counts.

Since realising the DJ push into J is a gotcha joke, I too find it hilarious (not that it affects me mind you, others seem to have a wee issue about paying a 500% premium and not getting the full benefits, but poo to them for being the spoilsports eh)?

As for shades of grey......great. Love the concept even when DJ vowed to keep LCC and offer full service.....oops sorry, let me correct myself........keep competitive whilst offering full service. Touble is, I'm seeing less of these competitive fares and more of the shades of grey (if that is code for offer LCC but charge for full service and of course YMMV). What any airline offers which you are happy with is entirely your decision........similarly, what I wish to pay for the product received is my decision and unfortunately, it's slowly but surely swung away from DJ but please, I'm not trying to impress my choice upon you.

Quick edit......I do see your fav airline in the above photos did provide charging facilities though and I also note no laptop in sight when you had your meal...........no TV dinners then?

 

[777]

The cost would be more like $100M so yes I would say it would stack up for them quite readily through both justifiable ticket pricing given the service they would be offering and potential advertising revenues given an audience of about 15 million captives per year.

Depends where they want to place themselves in the marketplace. Currently they are a LCC with a few added features.

So two years profits? Pretty big punt. Hmmm.

 

[maninblack]

Rubbish, the TCO would be closer to $300M when you factor in downtime, and they are pretty familiar with the advertising revenues from LTA which were so lucrative it's gone!

Where are you pulling these numbers from? $5M per aircraft. Installations are usually done when aircraft are being manufactured or in maintenance, this minimises downtime. The whole refit can be done in a few days. I think you are right though they have already missed the boat on that, they ought to give up and admit they are just a LCC with nicely colored seats...

 

[maninblack]

Pretty big punt. Hmmm.

That's called the airline industry!

 

[markis10]

Where are you pulling these numbers from? $5M per aircraft. Installations are usually done when aircraft are being manufactured or in maintenance, this minimises downtime. The whole refit can be done in a few days. I think you are right though they have already missed the boat on that, they ought to give up and admit they are just a LCC with nicely colored seats...

Note I said TCO, not just acquisition cost, the equipment alone adds a tonne to the weight of an aircraft, and most of the DJ fleet are a long way away from a C or D check when such work can be done without significant downtime. Note Air Canada's retro fit cost CAN$300M in 2006.

 

[straitman]

For those inclined to wander into a QF vs DJ discussion this is not the appropriate thread.

Please keep the discussion to something like 'What would you like to see on the new IFE System?'