What's happening with South African?

[grubbidok]

Does anyone know what's happening with the South African tie up? It was announced as all starting 'early 2015' back in November and now we've heard blip. My work TA booked some SA flights to Cape Town and Zambia thinking it would have kicked in by now (as far as I'm concerned, anything after March is no longer 'early 2015' - I guess 'should have' and 'would have' are different). She automatically put in my FF details.

All the flights are in Velocity 'my bookings' (though VA say the SYD-PER have VA numbers while the e-ticket says they have SA numbers), VA says I have WP level baggage allowance, checkmytrip says nothing. Have been trying to find out whether they get points or SCs via phone and social media and no-one can give me a straight-answer. Some have said "I don't *think* so, but I'm not sure, check with X", others have just been honest and said NFI. On the phone they've said "oh yes you'll definitely get the points all the way to SA", "no you won't get any points" and "you'll only get points for SYD-PER". Rinse and repeat.

What a dog's breakfast this has been. Should have just booked QF or EK - at least I'd avoid what looks to be a loungeless layover in Perth that way.

Anyone on AFF have any idea what's happening? Virgin certainly don't.

 

[im.daniel]

I too, have been monitoring this joint partnership quite closely - and its been terribly disappointing that we haven't heard from either since the announcement was made last year. 'Early 2015' was certainly optimistic. VFF gave a vague and unhelpful answer in another thread somewhere here.

 

[theevilmuppet]

I too, have been monitoring this joint partnership quite closely - and its been terribly disappointing that we haven't heard from either since the announcement was made last year. 'Early 2015' was certainly optimistic. VFF gave a vague and unhelpful answer in another thread somewhere here.

Given Virgin's shareholders and the various alliances they are each members of (all three of the majors), the treatment VA enjoys from the ACCC and the numerous US government departments, it's hardly surprising that this process isn't exactly swift.

 

[grubbidok]

Given Virgin's shareholders and the various alliances they are each members of (all three of the majors), the treatment VA enjoys from the ACCC and the numerous US government departments, it's hardly surprising that this process isn't exactly swift.

Perhaps the process isn't swift but:

a) VA need to stop announcing things so prematurely in an attempt to get kudos (and in this case sales) without actually having the product to back it up, and
b) VA should at least be able to tell me what my current booking is eligible for under whatever arrangement they currently have with SA. I've been told five different things about my points and SC earn on this booking, including three different things over the course of *one* phone call. On the phone (platinum desk) they even told me that their information was at best a guess, and that members should know more about the alliances than they do!

It's a shoddy and unprofessional (and dare I say misleading and deceptive) way to run an alliance.

I'm definitely annoyed that I booked SA under the impression (given by VA) that the alliance would be under way by now. However, I'm even more annoyed that no-one at VA can even give me a straight answer about what their current arrangements even are - perhaps because they don't even know what they are!

 

[theevilmuppet]

Perhaps the process isn't swift but:

a) VA need to stop announcing things so prematurely in an attempt to get kudos (and in this case sales) without actually having the product to back it up, and
b) VA should at least be able to tell me what my current booking is eligible for under whatever arrangement they currently have with SA. I've been told five different things about my points and SC earn on this booking, including three different things over the course of *one* phone call. On the phone (platinum desk) they even told me that their information was at best a guess, and that members should know more about the alliances than they do!

It's a shoddy and unprofessional (and dare I say misleading and deceptive) way to run an alliance.

I'm definitely annoyed that I booked SA under the impression (given by VA) that the alliance would be under way by now. However, I'm even more annoyed that no-one at VA can even give me a straight answer about what their current arrangements even are - perhaps because they don't even know what they are!

There's no excuse whatsoever for the lack of information you've been provided. The only thing I can find in writing about the Velocity implications of the alliance relates to VA operated flights with an SA flight number.

 

[Danger]

http://www.australianfrequentflyer..../south-african-airways-partnership-66512.html

 

[777]

Clearly i'm literally the only one around here that actually appreciates VA flagging these things before they come to completion.

Id rather know than not know. I had the same attitude to the SQ transfer issue which sent people apoplectic because it didn't happen sooner.

In this case i think there was a particularly compelling reason to announce the "coming" partnership which was the abrupt end to the SA/QF partnership due to their joint venture being nixed by the ACCC. Clearly SA needed to announce a new Australian partner ASAP so they could manage connections and generally ensure the ongoing viability of their AU flights.

FWIW, i think the first third of the year is still "early" and I always assumed "early 2015" was ambiguous because they were making no promise as to when it would all be done.

But...

Having said, the fact that they can't tell you what benefits apply right now is hopeless.

 

[Milboo]

Surely it could have been checked before booking the flights?

I was initially looking at a trip to Africa mid year and having looking at routes/ pricing on SA via PER or SA through SIN - next thing I did was check the status of the alliance to see if it was in place.

Easy to see on the Earn page on VFF that SA were not yet eligible so ruled those flights out of the equation even with the shorter flight time.

 

[grubbidok]

Surely it could have been checked before booking the flights?

I was initially looking at a trip to Africa mid year and having looking at routes/ pricing on SA via PER or SA through SIN - next thing I did was check the status of the alliance to see if it was in place.

Easy to see on the Earn page on VFF that SA were not yet eligible so ruled those flights out of the equation even with the shorter flight time.

The flights were booked in December for a mid-April flight. Had I booked later I could have seen the alliance discussion had not progressed, but at that stage every one (including VA I might add) seemed to think it would be in place by then and encouraged me to book SA.

The press release made it sound like a done deal (Virgin Australia and South African Airways bring new benefits to frequent flyers | Virgin Australia). As far as I'm concerned, this was tantamount to VA asking VA members to book on SA from mid-2015 on. "Early 2015" may be ambiguous, but if they wanted to be truly ambiguous they shouldn't have set a date at all. Early 2015 is now gone, and there is no arrangement even on the horizon.

I realise it's a bit caveat emptor but I know at least 5 other WPs I've spoken to who booked on the same assumption and are equally as miffed.

VA have form on this. They constantly give dates, and constantly fail to meet them. It's fine for things to be delayed, but they should be called out on promises to deliver by a certain time when they don't. The problem isn't that they make announcements early, it's that they provide completion dates that are never met. These dates are used by members as guides to planning their travel, and VA know it.

 

[notzac]

VA have form on this. They constantly give dates, and constantly fail to meet them. It's fine for things to be delayed, but they should be called out on promises to deliver by a certain time when they don't. The problem isn't that they make announcements early, it's that they provide completion dates that are never met. These dates are used by members as guides to planning their travel, and VA know it.

I agree that there should have at least been an update on this by now, but you really can't accuse them of giving a date for the reciprocal deal with SAA when they have never ever provided one. "Early 2015" isn't a date.

I have to say, it seems an assumption was made based on vague timeframes and now fingers are being pointed .. perhaps in the wrong direction?

 

[grubbidok]

... "Early 2015" isn't a date... I have to say, it seems an assumption was made based on vague timeframes and now fingers are being pointed .. perhaps in the wrong direction?

Timeframe then - point is the timeframe has passed. The release would suggest it should have happened by now. VA putting 'early 2015' in their announcement and then saying you can't hold us to it because it's not a 'date' is disingenuous. The tone of the release (suggesting it was definite and therefore more advanced than it was) and a timeframe (which wasn't met) is still misleading, and if not a PR exercise to generate buzz (and sales) than what else? Jumping the gun on the assumption that this meant it would be resolved by these flights. Yes, that's on me. But there was definitely a nudge (and perhaps a wink) from VA to suggest it would be a good idea.

At any rate - not getting points/SCs is only part of the frustration here (and one I am resolving - I am now trying to work out whether aligning these flights to EK or SQ is better - unfortunately I only have mid-tier status with both). Spending months trying to navigate what arrangement even exists and being told 15 (well, 5) different things by VA is the major issue. Everyone is suggesting just 'find' the information. It's not that easy (in fact, the website itself has also had three different things in the last 2mo on SA, and would change when I'd go back to confirm). I actually tried to find out more about this before booking, including from VA, but couldn't. I even had people on the phone suggest April 'should' be 'fine' (this was usually when I was discussing other matters - inc a US to India trip problem in Nov/Dec which I'd like to point out VA actually fixed wonderfully - I'd also ask if there was any further news. Yes, I know this was also deliberately vague). The point is even VA were confused on this - how are you supposed to make an informed decision when the people with the information can't even give consistent information?

The whole way they've handled this link and their communication about it has been terrible. Omnishambles comes to mind. It's a shame, because they do do well in other areas.

 

[777]

As far as I'm concerned, this was tantamount to VA asking VA members to book on SA from mid-2015 on.

If you insist on dividing the year into "early" and "mid" and "late" which one are we in?

 

[Milboo]

Earn Page on VFF - Virgin Australia operated flights sold with a South African Airways (SA) flight number are ineligible to earn Velocity Points and status Credits.

 

[grubbidok]

If you insist on dividing the year into "early" and "mid" and "late" which one are we in?

If you simply break it up in 3 (early, mid, late), then we're in the very last few drabs of 'early'. In my industry we define the boundary as the by the Easter break holidays (education) - YMMV - in which case 'mid-' is beginning. In quarters, it would be at the latest half-way through Q2, so in this most generous scenario they've only get a few weeks left. My flight is end-of-April and comes back mid-May. I wouldn't have personally considered it 'early 2015', but even by any of those other definitions, it is squeezing right into the end of 'early' and is 'mid' in most. It's certainly 'mid-' by the time I get back, and given no-one at VA I've spoken to sees it happening anytime soon (given that VA hasn't even informed them) VA definitely looked to have missed 'early 2015'.

At any rate, I may disagree with VA (and others) about this interpretation, but the fact remains they really should have kept us up to date with this. The thing that ticked this over from being a minor annoyance (it's not the first time I've had to change FF etc on a trip, I doubt it will be the last) to going up to 11 was the tremendous difficulty in even getting the most basic answers from VA - and being told so many incorrect things by them in the process (including being told once it was on - and then having that swiftly taken away when I called later to get seats assigned). I admit it's a minor annoyance, but it's been lathered into something much bigger by VA's handling of it.

Adding to the frustration was VA's form with this - while people are defending them as the dates were vague - VA have a *habit* of throwing out timeframes (no matter how 'vague') and then failing to deliver on a grand scale - we've seen it with lounges that are *years* later than VA tell us they will be (just look at the Hobart lounge thread - even though there's nowhere to build a lounge, they're still promising it!), IT updates that are long promised that in some cases still aren't there. If there is work to do, and timeframes may blow out, just make an announcement without any listed timeframe at all (many of their announcements do [or don't do] just that). I'm not the one telling VA to put the expectation out there, they create it themselves. And I think if they create the expectation themselves by saying it is 'happening by this time', they have an obligation to deliver it or if not be accountable.

Notwithstanding, I've pretty much let this go I am very much looking forward to the Africa trip (even if it is a work one).

 

[777]

Starts 30th of April:

Virgin Australia furthers loyalty partnership with South African Airways | Miles Down Under

As far as i cam concerned they said "early" 2015 and it is starting as promised.

After this and the SQ transfer overreaction fiasco the problem is not that Virgin announces general timeframes for these things and doesn't deliver. The problem is that people interpret general timeframes with their own specific meanings -- some of which make no sense to me -- and then get incredibly upset when their specific/ arbitrary/ personal deadlines aren't met.

Again: I really like it that VA flags theses things ahead of time and i'd hate to see them stop doing so because of reactions like these.