Wheelchair Assistance when you don't need Wheelchair!

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The issue of needing assistance is quite a big factor in my travel. I have needed some form of assistance for over 15 years. For the first few years, I was reluctant to ask for help and was unaware of the options, so I used my cane, went slowly, and felt lucky when the golf buggy offered me a lift for any distance. I didn't consider myself disabled and for many of those years, had not applied for a disabled parking sticker (which I only did at my doctor's suggestion).

However, I also had a lot of accidents and falls at airports, and so I started putting requests for assistance on my bookings. Depending on the airline and its policies, this had mixed outcomes. I would say I most consistently received assistance in the USA; in China it was almost never provided despite the request, and in Europe and Australia about 50-60% of the time. I have often waited between 20 and 60 minutes after landing for a wheelchair or my walking frame to arrive, and quite a few times I waited, only to be told it was too late, the commissionaires had finished for the evening, and I would have to manage without help. (This happened one night, on DJ, when we had arrived at the furthest gate in T2 Sydney, a long walk for me to the luggage carousel). For example, on Thursday, arriving in Adelaide, it took 55 minutes from landing to my being able to get to the taxis (long story, but for another day).

I began travelling with my own walking frame because it gave me a measure of independence in getting to the plane - I did not have to rely on a wheelchair attendant who may be heavily in demand. I can relate to what Jock28 describes for his mother, as I have checked in for an international flight, 3 hours before, and waited so long at the check in (well over 2 hours, and never even getting to the lounge) and then being so late that I heard my name being called as the last passenger to board the flight. When first taking my walking frame, many check in agents refused to let me take it to the airbridge until I insisted they call a supervisor as I knew it could be done. If I were not such a frequent traveller (my walking frame is also WP on QF and DJ), I would probably have accepted their refusal as if it were the rule.

In my experience, the airlines' policy is that wheelchair pax board first and disembark last. As I am always an aisle seat, I get up and get my cane and cabin bag and move forward to wait in the front row of J (and yes, sometimes wishing I had been there all flight!) so as to let the other pax in my row disembark. I am quite conscious that I am more able-bodied than many wheelchair pax for whom this is not an option until the aisle-chair arrives for them, often a wait of 10-20 minutes. If my walking frame is brought quickly to the plane door, I can disembark along with the other pax, but this is not common.

I agree with those on this board who deplore scammers or people claiming assistance when they have no real need. It would be an appalling outcome if scammers resulted in depriving those in genuine need of proper assistance. I have worked enough in the field of disability to know that not all impairments are visible, and am slow to judge people's level of need by merely looking at them. It is not easy to know exactly how to ensure appropriate support is provided to those needing it, without seeming to put people through the wringer. I used to carry a letter from my doctor about setting off metal detectors and needing an aisle seat, and could certainly have a letter setting out the things I can and can't do in terms of stairs, walking distances, standing long periods etc. My mobility parking permit also has my photo, so that is another option to support a request for assistance which cannot be scammed.

In terms of the OP's issue, I don't see why he should have been moved, especially from row 23 with its fixed armrests, unless the nature of the person's disability (leg in a full cast?) required a front row (but obviously not an exit row). Even then there were other vacant seats in that row. I must say that as walking distances is a problem for me, I always aim for a seat near the front (which as a WP I usually am able to get), but as I said above, it is no advantage for a quick disembarkation as you have to wait until last.

As drron said, this issue is only going to increase with an ageing population, many of whom travel more extensively than previous generations. I have seen improvements in airlines asking more questions to determine specific types of assistance which are needed (eg: lifts and hoists to avoid stairs, buggy or wheelchair for walking long distances) although there is some way to go in terms of staff understanding what these mean for the passenger. One advantage of being boarded early, in a wheelchair or using my frame, is that there is a quiet moment to speak to the CSM about what is needed on arrival. Most CSMs have been excellent in this regard. I have had more difficulty with check-in staff understanding my requirements.

Somewhat off-topic, in relation to scams at Disneyland, while I hate the idea of scammers rorting the system and spoiling it for those in need, I have to say that Disney is one of the best providers of appropriate assistance. My biggest problem at Disney is the other park-goers who walk into my chair, sit on me (yes, literally), push in constantly in front of me, and I feel quite invisible. If it weren't for the Disney staff and their helpful attitude, I would have long since given up what is in fact a very pleasurable place to spend a few days. [ /end off-topic rant].
 
Sorry to hear of your experience Rhiannon.

I attended a two day conference at the Australian Human Rights Commission on People Living with Disabilities, and the issues and discrimination that they face. I was shocked at issues such as institutionalisation which still exist, as well as forced sterilization of minors.

Back on topic: I know the human rights lawyer who took JQ to task for their actions. I hope that all airlines provide the support and service that those who require it need, without over entitled pax fuming over being reseated on a 60ish minute flight. Kindness towards one another seems to be a virtue that is limited in this day and age.
 
John, you have based your views on speculation.
You are refusing to ignore facts. Either that or you do not believe me.

I was displaced from my seat by someone requiring "Wheelchair assistance" who actually rushed off the aircraft with everyone else. There was no request for "Wheelchair Assistance" in MEL. I was not shown her personal details but was shown that there was a request for "Wheelchair assistance" on her record.

The above is not speculation. It is fact. I should just accept it and stop whinging? Not that easily.

I have already received an op-up for the inconvenience I was caused. I do not want anything else.

I will though report what has occurred. I hope she gets a mark against her name. I suspect not and she will do it again and next time though she is going to inconvenience someone who has a genuine need for "wheelchair assistance".
 
I am not ignoring the facts, as what you have highlighted is the only fact that can be known for sure. The rest is speculation. We don't know her reasons for getting off quickly, we are speculating as to why she did, hence why I have issue with you accusing her of being a scammer and a low life.
 
Something here is not quite right. I am demanding an explanation as it is my right after giving up my rightful seat. I was given an explanation that someone requiring wheelchair assistance needed my seat. I accepted it until I witnessed what had happened on board.

You may not have got the seat you selected, but you got the seat that you paid for and Qantas got you from A to B in full compliance with the terms they sold the ticket to you under. Weather another pax was taking advantage of the assistance is actually none of your business and even if she was faking things there is really bugger all Qantas can do about it, without taking the risk of one day inadvertently inconveniencing someone with 100% genuine need, and there is certainly nothing anyone can do about it at the end of your flight.

Also besides you have not at any point proven that she has done anything wrong, indeed as you mentioned she had a chair on and Qantas didn't even have one waiting. So really you have no idea what went on on arrival, nor do you have any idea what her condition was. I reckon the biggest issue here is the fact that someone has given you details about where she came from and where she was going, it really is none of your business.

I have already received an op-up for the inconvenience I was caused. I do not want anything else.

What inconvenience was that? An extra few rows walk, but by someone who (I presume) is fully able bodied. As for the op-up for inconvenience maybe the agent thought you were a whining tosser Platinum and decided to upgrade you to shut you up rather than for any inconvenience caused. As mentioned above you got the seat you paid for, just not the seat you selected.
 
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What inconvenience was that? An extra few rows walk, but by someone who (I presume) is fully able bodied. As for the op-up for inconvenience maybe the agent thought you were a whining tosser Platinum and decided to upgrade you to shut you up rather than for any inconvenience caused. As mentioned above you got the seat you paid for, just not the seat you selected.
He may well have been inconvenienced, however I am not going to make any assumptions.

What I am curious about is that a friend of mine who requires assistance as she can not walk any distance is always put into a window seat. This has been explained as so as not to be in the way of an able bodied person incase of an emergency evacuation. So why was the women in a middle seat and not an aisle (for access) or a window (for safety)?
 
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I'd be interested to see how you'd react if this situation happened to you...

I've remember my flight last Monday morning. Very large lady wheeled to row 4 on 737. Wheelchair driver looks at seats, notices row 1A, B empty asks crew about those 2 seats and decides to sit passenger there with their friend. Did I care that I didn't get a free upgrade? No, it's none of my business and I got want I paid to have.

As for the OP, it is a big amount of assumption and it jumps to a few conclusions. I wonder if JohnK or anyone else has stopped to consider the privacy issues around staff giving out so much personal information about another passenger. Given the legal issues involved, I wonder if the staff member might have just told him something to get rid of him. :?:
 
I've remember my flight last Monday morning. Very large lady wheeled to row 4 on 737. Wheelchair driver looks at seats, notices row 1A, B empty asks crew about those 2 seats and decides to sit passenger there with their friend. Did I care that I didn't get a free upgrade? No, it's none of my business and I got want I paid to have.

Thing is, your example has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's.
Again, you continue to post unrelated (and probably irrelevant) content.
The suspect in the OP's example did not get an upgrade. This has nothing to do with upgrades to J.
Said person bumped him several rows back and did not follow the policy as reiterated by member Rhiannon at the top of page 7.
Not following the policy allowed this person to obtain an advantage (59E -> 23B). Some could say it was by deception.

Oh, and I never claimed that there is a rule about waiting. "..which I understand is part of the conditions.. "

<redacted>

If someone requiring assistance shouldn't have to wait, then they shouldn't have to sit in the front section of Y and shouldn't be bumping others by way of that required assistance. Someone who is assigned 59E and "doesn't need to wait" should be just fine in 59E, or any other seat because they have the ability to walk to the door since "there is no need for them to wait". Your (lack of) logic has failed you.

I'm waiting for you to show me where the wheelchair access seats are clearly shown on the 737 seat map. I've shown you that they are not displayed in the way that you say they are (ie at all), so not only are you a liar but you are also very wrong.

If this person really needed assistance then they should not have been put in a non accessible row (23).

If you were punished by being bumped from a front Y seat to one several rows back (see I'm spelling it out because you clearly didn't grasp what "if this situation" means) I'd like to see how you'd react. Actually, don't bother replying, it's not like you have shown any ability or understanding on how to reply to content in posts in this thread.

JohnK, you said this happened a second time in 3 flights - what were the details of the other incident?
 
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I've just put the kettle on. I think it could be an interesting evening
 
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I can't see that happening. There's a world of PR pain awaiting them any time they make a wrong, or even questionable, call.

You would have that bill shorten for one jumping and and down (grandstanding) like he did with that chap from Newcastle.
 
JohnK, you said this happened a second time in 3 flights - what were the details of the other incident?
The first one was for a visually impaired person where I went from 4D to 7D. He also had a carer and I could see the guide dog sitting on floor. That I can accept.

Some of the people in this thread are absolutely unbelievable. You are attacking me. It is quite clear. Have a go at me as I have a history of whinging?

- A person has said they required wheelchair assistance and they did not need it. I do not care the reasons of why they no longer needed wheelchair assistance
- I do not have any personal details of this person other than what was given to me at SYD check-in and by gate agent in MEL and that was they were on a connection from LAX in SYD to MEL and had an onward flight to ADL.
- She should never have been in 23B in the first place. She could have been put in any seat from row 24 to row 32.

She got better all of sudden? There was no one with a wheelchair waiting for her in MEL. She looked quite smug when I boarded and walked past row 23. She is a scammer and one of the lowest forms of life. Simple.

And stop quoting me stupid fine print about blah blah blah and take this for what it was where someone was rorting the system.
 
Here we go again with the speculation. John, once again it is not personal.

The fact that you don't have the full set of facts, yet you are calling her a scammer and a low life is IMO harsh, and it is speculating. I am interested to see what your response back from QF on this one is.

Oh well - there is no point having a differing point of view is there?
 
The fact that you don't have the full set of facts, yet you are calling her a scammer and a low life is IMO harsh, and it is speculating. I am interested to see what your response back from QF on this one is.
Who cares?

I gave you facts and all you are trying to do is defend her actions and telling me this and telling me that and how my seat is not guaranteed and how I should just suck it up.

Thanks for your wonderful advice but I do not need it and nor do I need people jumping down my throat.

And by the way I am happy with the compensation I received from Qantas. The rest is just feedback and hopefully someone at Qantas will put 2 and 2 together and ask her for a please explain.
 
Who cares?

I gave you facts and all you are trying to do is defend her actions and telling me this and telling me that and how my seat is not guaranteed and how I should just suck it up.

Thanks for your wonderful advice but I do not need it and nor do I need people jumping down my throat.

And by the way I am happy with the compensation I received from Qantas. The rest is just feedback and hopefully someone at Qantas will put 2 and 2 together and ask her for a please explain.

John, you don't have a full set of facts, yet you don't want people to have differing opinions to yours? You are the one who seems to want to make this "personal"...

I have not defended her actions, as from the information to do so would be to speculate. I have not seen anyone jump down your throat here, just people with differing opinions. If that is jumping down your throat, so be it.

It is clear to me that the biased opinion being displayed will not allow for an open discussion.
 
Thing is, your example has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's.
Again, you continue to post unrelated (and probably irrelevant) content.
The suspect in the OP's example did not get an upgrade. This has nothing to do with upgrades to J.
Said person bumped him several rows back and did not follow the policy as reiterated by member Rhiannon at the top of page 7.

And you accuse me of no logic. The OP feels entitled to 23B. You asked how I would feel, so I related an experience where an assistance passenger got something. You seem to have completely missed the point that I did feel any sense of entitlement to be upgraded in presence to the assistance passenger. It's called an analogy to demonstrate that I wouldn't feel entitled to a particular seat as the OP does.

Not following the policy allowed this person to obtain an advantage (59E -> 23B). Some could say it was by deception.

Oh, and I never claimed that there is a rule about waiting. "..which I understand is part of the conditions.. "

You shouldn't reply to posts if you are going to ignore the content, fabricate some of your own and then tell lies.

Sorry you should read your own post. You've quoted it, you believe there is a rule about waiting. What else does "which [you] believe are part of the conditions" mean? That is your content, I have not ignored it. You are making claims about policy and requirements to wait. Given you've now backed away from that claim it suggests you're just making up excrement, and basing your position on it. Sorry to have called you on your own words.

As for my logical fallacy, maybe of you try reading my content you might actually learn something. I have said a number of times that many people can walk short distances but not long. In the case of my wife's grandmother this difference certainly encompasses the difference between row 59 and row 23. I've explained this a number of times. I'm sorry that you seem to be incapable of understand such a simple concept.
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I'm waiting for you to show me where the wheelchair access seats are clearly shown on the 737 seat map. I've shown you that they are not displayed in the way that you say they are (ie at all), so not only are you a

You've demonstrated nothing of the sort. Your insults, I suggest, are simply a reflection of your feelings about your own contribution to this thread. I certainly do not accept insults that are based in false assumptions much like the conclusions of the OP. It's ironic to be lectured about logic by someone who adds 2 + 2 and gets 15. Then pointing out the lack of evidence and other possible explanations is an attack on the poor OP.
 
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I was displaced from my seat by someone requiring "Wheelchair assistance" who actually rushed off the aircraft with everyone else. There was no request for "Wheelchair Assistance" in MEL. I was not shown her personal details but was shown that there was a request for "Wheelchair assistance" on her record.

The above is not speculation. It is fact.

Do you know what level of wheelchair assistance was required? On aircraft or just in terminal? It is interesting that you keep holding up wheelchair assistance as a phrase. Why to incorrectly imply that the person must be in a wheelchair at all times?

Did you see them rush off the aircraft? If not, then sorry that is NOT a fact, it is pure speculation.

Oh and if you bother to read my posts you'll see that I have specifically stated that you should submit feedback. I also note that you mentioned being flamed in the OP and you now seem extremely defensive including falsely accusing people of attacking you. Why is that?
 
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I'll tell you all something. If I want 23 B and there is some lowly statused duck there pretending to be crook, that airline will cop an earful from me. And I pick my fights carefully.
 
And you accuse me of no logic. The OP feels entitled to 23B. You asked how I would feel, so I related an experience where an assistance passenger got something. You seem to have completely missed the point that I did feel any sense of entitlement to be upgraded in presence to the assistance passenger. It's called an analogy to demonstrate that I wouldn't feel entitled to a particular seat as the OP does.
Too bad your analogy is beside the point. You didn't get bumped to a "lesser" seat - the OP did.
The "compensation" upgrade (which happened after the incident) received by the OP is not what I'm referring to.

Sorry you should read your own post. You've quoted it, you believe there is a rule about waiting. What else does "which [you] believe are part of the conditions" mean? That is your content, I have not ignored it. You are making claims about policy and requirements to wait. Given you've now backed away from that claim it suggests you're <redacted> and basing your position on it. Sorry to have called you on your own words.

As for my logical fallacy, maybe of you try reading my content you might actually learn something. I have said a number of times that many people can walk short distances but not long. In the case of my wife's grandmother this difference certainly encompasses the difference between row 59 and row 23. I've explained this a number of times. I'm sorry that you seem to be incapable of understand such a simple concept.
You fail to comprehend the difference between "I understand..", "I believe.." and "I claim.."
Claim | Define Claim at Dictionary.com

You've also (conveniently) ignored the fact that 23B is not an accessible seat, as shown on the QF 767 seatmap.
What's the difference between row 23 and 24? How about 23 and 25?
Are you saying that someone who can walk to row 23 without assistance cannot walk to row 24 without assistance?
icon_eek.gif



You've demonstrated nothing of the sort.
Yes, I have. I posted every link that QF has on their website (all two of them) of the 737-800 seatmaps that DO NOT point out where the wheelchair access seats are.
Seat Maps for the Boeing 737-800 | Qantas
Even the 737-400 seatmap (one only) does not show it.
Seat Maps for the Boeing 737-400 | Qantas

Even a 3rd party website does not show them:
SeatGuru Seat Map Qantas Boeing 737-800 (73H)

You said that they are clearly marked.
The truth is that they are not.

<redacted>

If you want to post a link or screenshot showing where they are, please do because you have not done anything of the sort so far.

You should post the QF policy document for assistance passengers that shows where such pax "don't have to wait" upon disembarking. I won't be holding my breath for you to put up something useful.

Merry Christmas
icon_smile.gif
 
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I flew QF from Manila to Sydney a few days ago, there was on lady waiting at the gate for a wheelchair. She was standing there and on her own two feet and would have had to walk down the steps to the gate, yet she jumped into a wheelchair and was boarded before everyone else, at Sydney I saw her again standing in the line at immigration.
 
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