100,000 points taken in 11 weeks QFF

[MEL_Traveller]

With the exception of the middle sentence (which is quite subjective) the same could be said for every opinion expressed - either for or against.

thats my whole point, a simple reading of the clause is not self explanatory. you need to ask questions to clarify and to reach a conclusion. you have to interpret.

those siding with the passenger do not need to interpret anything, just recognise it is unclear.

if it is unclear, the passenger should get the advantage of that.

not reading emails is potentially a red herring. if the clause is unclear, subsequent emails can't rectify that. an email outlining expiry may not even be relevant.

 

[JessicaTam]

Yes emails received but not read until a few days ago when i noticed an email with point balance of 0

When i called up and spoke to QFF rep originally before transfer was done i advised the rep that i needed my account number for my mum to transfer some points to me. All personal details were updated obviously as account had not activity for so long. I didn't ask for a card but one was sent. The rep never advised over the phone that the account was inactive and points would expire in 11 weeks from transfer date

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter if they sent me 1,000 emails.

As I have said previously, Qantas has failed to adequately warn its customers (my mum) and incorrect information was given over the telephone which has resulted in the points expiring.

Incorrect information or no information? As per your explanation of the phone call to QF did not advise you of anything, so it could hardly be incorrect. Their system may not even show inactivity/expiry to the CSA.

Edit: You would have ignored 1,000 emails?

 

[JessicaTam]

thats my whole point, a simple reading of the clause is not self explanatory. you need to ask questions to clarify and to reach a conclusion. you have to interpret.

those siding with the passenger do not need to interpret anything, just recognise it is unclear.

if it is unclear, the passenger should get the advantage of that.

not reading emails is potentially a red herring. if the clause is unclear, subsequent emails can't rectify that. an email outlining expiry may not even be relevant.

Your interpretation is to decide that the T&Cs are unclear. Everything you say is based on that.

 

[footy99]

Wow! Fantastic news on the re-instatement front! Well done Qantas!

I thought you might have to take this further but great to see they came around.

So as mentioned earlier:

"The warning provided on the family transfers page needs to be replicated somewhere in the T&Cs for reference. Without it, the only time of potential points expiry comes 18 months after last activity, as Medhead noted. The T&Cs currently make no provision for expiry of points from family transfers after that time."

Did that end up happening to sort out the situation for future reference?

 

[JessicaTam]

Wow! Fantastic news on the re-instatement front! Well done Qantas!

I thought you might have to take this further but great to see they came around.

So as mentioned earlier:

"The warning provided on the family transfers page needs to be replicated somewhere in the T&Cs for reference. Without it, the only time of potential points expiry comes 18 months after last activity, as Medhead noted. The T&Cs currently make no provision for expiry of points from family transfers after that time."

Did that end up happening to sort out the situation for future reference?

I believe that is a work in progress.

 

[Hvr]

reflecting on this thread it has been interesting to see some AFF members taking a view against the OP and siding with Qantas.

In a situation where there is uncertainty, and the outcome according to the terms and conditions is not cut-and-dried, what is the advantage of interpreting the terms and conditions in such a way that they are against a passenger? What are those in favour of Qantas not reinstating the points trying to achieve?

I have nothing at all against the OP and their mother. They have admitted that they ignored several warnings about the imminent expiration of their points. Qantas has done them a huge favour giving them a limited time to use them. Yet the response seems to be that no favour was done, that they (OP) did nothing wrong and that Qantas was totally out of order.

Qantas is running a business not a private entertainment booth for our amusement.

In the course of our lives we enter into agreements where the T&Cs are crucial to obtaining the best use of the product. For both parties. Failure to abide by them has consequences, sometimes ones we consider harsh.

IMHO Qantas has been more than generous and in light of some of the comments here may reconsider their process in the future which would be to our detriment.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

...

They have admitted that they ignored several warnings about the imminent expiration of their points. Qantas has done them a huge favour giving them a limited time to use them. Yet the response seems to be that no favour was done, that they (OP) did nothing wrong and that Qantas was totally out of order.


IMHO Qantas has been more than generous and in light of some of the comments here may reconsider their process in the future which would be to our detriment.

yes but - the failure to read the emails may be completely irrelevant! that's the whole point. I am not expecting my points to expire, so I don't look for that.

there is really nothing else much contained in those emails of any relevance right? So if I'm not looking i won't find.

even if the OP may have done something wrong, that doesn't excuse the other party. If the terms and conditions don't cover something, or are in any way uncertain, or impose an unexpected outcome that (for example) would provide for an unfair gain by the company, then it should rightly be determined in favour of the customer (the one that as no power to set the terms and conditions).

what future generosity are people worried about? I am not expecting Qantas to be 'generous' to me about anything. I only expect what my contract with them says. I do not rely on generosity, but would be willing to pursue a claim via legal avenues if necessary.

the only other generosity i can think of is the free flights, free lunches, free dinners and free accommodation which is offered. for good reason, anyone who has received such hospitality should try and take an objective view of the facts, free from any personal involvement.

 

[footy99]

That's a good point.

It is pretty clear from the other thread on the loss of points that this has nothing to do with generosity from Qantas. If the situation was covered by their T&Cs, the points are not re-instated.

But in this case, the situation isn't covered by the T&Cs, so they need to do something to rectify it. And they have. And all credit to them for that.

If they want to avoid having to do it again, the T&Cs need updating to cover the scenario, which is a simple fix that has been outlined a few times here (and may have already happened - I haven't checked in the last few days).

 

[Moody]

I have nothing at all against the OP and their mother. They have admitted that they ignored several warnings about the imminent expiration of their points..

They HAVE NOT admitted to ignoring several warnings - they admitted they did not forensically read the monthly spam/newsletter on the off chance that Qantas had decided to unexpectedly expire all their points

Qantas has done them a huge favour giving them a limited time to use them. Yet the response seems to be that no favour was done, that they (OP) did nothing wrong and that Qantas was totally out of order.

Qantas is running a business not a private entertainment booth for our amusement.

Qantas have done them no favours. A favour would be to re-instate all points fully, apologise for the stress, and offer a free business-class upgrade the next time they fly. Instead the lawyers have warned them that such behaviour could expose Qantas to similar claims from other customers, so they have put special conditions around the reinstatement. Yep - they sure are running a business .... hence their decision not to pursue a losing legal position but try to cut a deal instead. Borderline bullying behaviour but there's a lot of it about.

In the course of our lives we enter into agreements where the T&Cs are crucial to obtaining the best use of the product. For both parties. Failure to abide by them has consequences, sometimes ones we consider harsh.

IMHO Qantas has been more than generous and in light of some of the comments here may reconsider their process in the future which would be to our detriment.

The earn/burn criteria of 18 months is well known and spelt out in the T&Cs. The scenario that we are discussing here is not (to my knowledge) and can effectively expire ponits within weeks.

 

[JessicaTam]

They HAVE NOT admitted to ignoring several warnings - they admitted they did not forensically read the monthly spam/newsletter on the off chance that Qantas had decided to unexpectedly expire all their points

Not even opening the emails looks like ignoring them to me.

Qantas have done them no favours. A favour would be to re-instate all points fully, apologise for the stress, and offer a free business-class upgrade the next time they fly. Instead the lawyers have warned them that such behaviour could expose Qantas to similar claims from other customers, so they have put special conditions around the reinstatement. Yep - they sure are running a business .... hence their decision not to pursue a losing legal position but try to cut a deal instead. Borderline bullying behaviour but there's a lot of it about.

And you were involved with the lawyers' discussions? I am not sure how offering the points back for an opportunity to use them amounts to bullying.

The earn/burn criteria of 18 months is well known and spelt out in the T&Cs. The scenario that we are discussing here is not (to my knowledge) and can effectively expire ponits within weeks.

The account had no activity for more than 18 months - points in the account expire. I was actually curious that they lasted a couple of months. When I was investigating doing a similar thing last year I read the T&Cs and did not proceed. Why? Because it was clear (to me at least) that the points would expire.

 

[woodborer]

Qantas have done them no favours. A favour would be to re-instate all points fully, apologise for the stress, and offer a free business-class upgrade the next time they fly. Instead the lawyers have warned them that such behaviour could expose Qantas to similar claims from other customers, so they have put special conditions around the reinstatement. Yep - they sure are running a business .... hence their decision not to pursue a losing legal position but try to cut a deal instead. Borderline bullying behaviour but there's a lot of it about.

Interesting view. In my own experience, Qantas has been one of the better companies at making things right, if they are in the wrong. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that Qantas has a legal opinion supporting their view. There are a number of reasons a company may choose to offer a settlement such as this, even if they believe they are right. PR, Customer relations and of course, the legal cost of defending their opinion. While this is more an unfortunate set of circumstances, there are a lot of cases where customers are pulling fast ones on companies as well.

 

[ermen]

Enough of he said she said you said I think. These are the terms and conditions

So, fair enough, OP by definition is a non-active member. So under a strict reading of the T&C, QF was very much in their rights to expire the points.
But, under the same reading, a new account was setup to receive the points, they would equally have expired the month they landed into the account (with the caveat of 60 day notice). I guess the relevant question to consider is:

1. What was the intention of this rule? Obviously it is to make people engaged with the program. But for someone who was previously disengaged with the program and wanted to re-engage, should we be penalising them for this?
2. And is it reasonable that a point that has previously been made non-Active, be in this status "ad-infinitum"? Or should they make it like a new account (it could be possible that QF will confiscate family transfers into a brand new account).
3. Is it reasonable that QF would allow the transfer of points into a non-Active account in the first instance?

IMHO, whether the OP was given 1000 warnings is irrelevant to the analysis at hand...

9.2.2 All Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member). For this purpose, Points earned in relation to Eligible Flights are deemed to be earned on the date the Eligible Flight was taken. Within 60 days of the Points expiration date, Qantas will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:


'Active Member' at a point in time, means a Member who has earned or redeemed Points or Status Credits (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member) on their Membership account within the previous consecutive 18 whole month period from that point in time;

 

[vitagen]

Why is this thread still going...

 

[hcsneb111]

Incorrect information or no information? As per your explanation of the phone call to QF did not advise you of anything, so it could hardly be incorrect. Their system may not even show inactivity/expiry to the CSA.

Edit: You would have ignored 1,000 emails?

Incorrect and no information. Information is not contained in the T&C, some aff users are continuing to ignore this fact.

Incorrect information was given twice to my mum when doing the transfer. One rep said they last 12 months, the other said 18 months. Both incorrect.

Anyone siding with Qantas please tell why you think Qantas did a backflip with their decision?

 

[serfty]

Not even opening the emails looks like ignoring them to me.

...

IMHO and in the context of this thread, unless the subject line of these emails had the text "Points Expiry Warning" or similar then I would not consider it "ignoring".

Heck, these days I rarely read mine as there is generally little content of interest to me.

In fact, not having such warning in the subject is quite possibly a strong contributor to QFF reversing their decision (albeit in a restricted manner). I suspect this was on legal advice.

To be honest, a QFF point in promotions is generally valued at 0.8¢, so that's a mere $800 in Qantas eyes.

I would suggest that an evaluation of this cost was another contributing factor.

 

[Moody]

Not even opening the emails looks like ignoring them to me.

The claim was that the victim "ignored several warnings". I have emphasised the word "warnings". Do I really need to explain why?

And you were involved with the lawyers' discussions? I am not sure how offering the points back for an opportunity to use them amounts to bullying.

Because any reasonable jury would agree that the victim was given conflicting advice (both verbally and in the T&Cs) and the actions taken by Qantas were unreasonable. As such the transaction should be struck down, but instead more actions outside the T&Cs of the program have been taken. Qantas are making this up as they go along, and I for one would love to see this go to court but can understand why the victim may choose to cut their losses.

The account had no activity for more than 18 months - points in the account expire. I was actually curious that they lasted a couple of months. When I was investigating doing a similar thing last year I read the T&Cs and did not proceed. Why? Because it was clear (to me at least) that the points would expire.

Good on you for reading the fine priint in detail and realising that it broke their own T&Cs and could therefore could pose a problem. Yes - 18 months of no qualifying activity means the member is deemed non-active and all points are expired at the end of that month. That is the only time (barring the death or other cancelling event) that the T&Cs allow Qantas to expire points. Family transfers into a non-active account are badly managed by Qantas and their solution (to break their own T&Cs) is a poor one.

 

[footy99]

Haha vitagen - good point!

Out of interest hcsneb111, what are you going to do with the points now?

 

[kevrosmith]

Why is this thread still going...

I often don't understand why people say things like this. If people don't want to follow an active thread, they can always unsubscribe from it using the Thread Tools menu.

 

[JohnK]

IMHO and in the context of this thread, unless the subject line of these emails had the text "Points Expiry Warning" or similar then I would not consider it "ignoring".

I hardly ever look at the content in the 4 monthly statements I receive. I know these accounts are active but if there was some sort of message at the bottom of the email I would never see it.

There has to be a better way to inform the member that points are expiring.

Oh, and once customer service staff have provided the wrong information the terms and conditions are null and void. These are recorded calls and Qantas should have a history of them if you wanted to dispute a point.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I hardly ever look at the content in the 4 monthly statements I receive. I know these accounts are active but if there was some sort of message at the bottom of the email I would never see it.

There has to be a better way to inform the member that points are expiring.

Oh, and once customer service staff have provided the wrong information the terms and conditions are null and void. These are recorded calls and Qantas should have a history of them if you wanted to dispute a point.

unfortunately the wrong information by an agent will not void the terms and conditions. however, any discussion with an agent can contribute to uncertainty around terms and conditions if they are unclear to start with. this evidence would need to be taken into account.

a easier way to stop this happening would be to prevent transfers into an inactive account. period. and that should be easy to do.