100,000 points taken in 11 weeks QFF

[JessicaTam]

It looks like you've had points transferred into an account which has not had activity for >18 months.

You ignored the two emails Qantas sent you telling you that the points were about to be cancelled.

If the above is correct then I do not see why you should have the points reinstated.

I agree.

11. Family transfers

11.1 Up to four (4) times in any 12 month period a Member may transfer some of their Points to an Eligible Family Member, on the following basis:
(a) the Eligible Family Member receiving the Points must be a Member before the transfer is made;
(b) the Member transferring the Points must specify the name and Membership number of, and nature of their relationship with, the Eligible Family Member receiving the Points;
(c) a transfer must be for at least 5,000 Points but no more than 100,000 Points, and must be in whole numbers of Points;
(d) once Points have been transferred, the transfer cannot be reversed or cancelled by either the Member transferring the Points or the recipient;
(e) the Qantas Group is not responsible for any incorrect transfers made at this website where the incorrect transfer is not due to an error by the Qantas Group, its employees or agents, and in such circumstances will not refund any Points incorrectly or mistakenly transferred; and
(f) family transfers do not count as activity on your membership or the membership that you transfer the Points to, for the purpose of preventing Points from expiring.
11.2 All transfers of Points to an Eligible Family Member which are completed by telephone will incur an Award Assistance Fee (see Fee Schedule).
11.3 Members must not require or receive any consideration (in the form of a payment or otherwise) for any transfer to an Eligible Family Member.
11.4 Members should note that such a transfer may have tax implications. Members are advised to check with their accountant or tax adviser for further information.
11.5 Family transfers may be made at this website, or by such other method advised by Qantas from time to time.

The account you transferred the points into was inactive, therefore they expire. The only question I have is why it took 11 weeks and why not immediately?

The points do not carry activity with them when they are transferred.

 

[cove]

Points expiry encourages use by members so it is a good policy for Qantas to have. Inactive members get weeded out.
This points transfer post does look harsh compared to two of my older friends who just let their accounts lie forgotten and dormant.

 

[albatross710]

Conspiracy theory suggests that someone at QF decided to tidy up the QFF inactive accounts in preparation for the http://www.australianfrequentflyer....february-big-qantas-announcement-57415-2.html sales of QFF announcement

 

[Hvr]

I believe that is irrelevant.

Hard earned FF points should never expire.

And that is a whole other argument. Although I am sure the finance/accounting people can tell us why they do because they are a financial liability that needs to be counted on the books.

 

[Steelo]

I am often surprised that people do not understand that the QF FF program is a business which has terms and conditions - points are a liability that must be accounted for. But when it comes to Qantas, there is still this residual attitude by many people that Qantas is some type of business that must meet everyone's whims and expectations - as if it was still owned by the Australian taxpayer. If we want a long term viable ff program - which is probably one of the best in the world - it needs to be well managed like any other business and this means establishing terms and conditions that allow for its on going profitability.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am often surprised that people do not understand that the QF FF program is a business which has terms and conditions - points are a liability that must be accounted for. But when it comes to Qantas, there is still this residual attitude by many people that Qantas is some type of business that must meet everyone's whims and expectations - as if it was still owned by the Australian taxpayer. If we want a long term viable ff program - which is probably one of the best in the world - it needs to be well managed like any other business and this means establishing terms and conditions that allow for its on going profitability.

there is very little justification to say the qantas frequent flyer program is one of the best in the world... unless you are considering it solely as a profit centre for QF.

it is certainly. it one of the best in the world in terms of the customer being able to redeem flights when they want, or for aspects such as confirmed international upgrades.

while there are terms and conditions, the current case is simply not covered. it's probably a one in a million scenario, but that doesn't mean the terms and conditions should be read to fit the situation if they don't by any reasonable interpretation.

 

[ellen10]

I just read this thread and it is very interesting.
I feel sad for the OP in losing the points and her Mum who was giving her the gift of points. Many people I know do not not know do not know the "ins and outs" of points gathering and retaining. And are only small points gatherers. I know with my own sons I have tried to advise them in financial matters and FF programs, as well as credit cards. They are now getting more savvy. Young people are often too "busy" to read T&Cs.

I myself thank the day that I discovered the AFF site. I have learnt so much from many experienced people and as I have gained knowledge I have tried to contribute too.

I know rules are rules but it does seem a sad scenario for both Mum & daughter. I hope the resolution is a happy one.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I know rules are rules but it does seem a sad scenario for both Mum & daughter. I hope the resolution is a happy one.

there are no rules here! (as I have outlined before).

it is a sad scenario, but if the facts are as explained by the OP then there seems to be a good ground for those points to be reinstated.

 

[markis10]

there are no rules here! (as I have outlined before).

it is a sad scenario, but if the facts are as explained by the OP then there seems to be a good ground for those points to be reinstated.

I agree, the rules are contradictory to the viewpoint that transferring to a dormant account should mean the points go straight away simply because of the 60 day warning:

Within 60 days of the Points expiration date, Qantas will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) A warning is displayed to Members within the Points Balance section of Your Summary on qantas.com;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.

As I had posted earlier I thought it would be reasonable to assume that the original validity would stick in this scenario, however it looks like its a case of transfer and start a 60 day countdown so the warnings can be given rather than instant loss. It will be interesting to hear an official version of the policy, I am not sure its that rare a scenario.

 

[woodborer]

But the clause on transfers only says that transfers need to be made to a 'member', without any warning as to the distinction between active and non-active.

And I would interpret that by saying member, it can be taken to include all members, whether active or inactive.

 

[woodborer]

The account you transferred the points into was inactive, therefore they expire. The only question I have is why it took 11 weeks and why not immediately?

They always expire at the end of the month. They would also go through the notice period, to take the wind out of the sails of those that claimed they were not warned.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

And I would interpret that by saying member, it can be taken to include all members, whether active or inactive.

when you have terms and conditions they won't generally be read more widely than they are written.

in this specific context, it is very difficult to interpret 'member' to refer to both active and non-active... because the validity provisions mean any points transfer to an non-active account could expire immediately. which just doesn't make sense.

 

[opusman]

because the validity provisions mean any points transfer to an non-active account could expire immediately. which just doesn't make sense.

It makes sense, once an account has had no activity on it for 18 months all points in it expire, and family transfer does not count as activity. It's completely within the letter of the rules.

Think of another scenario - imagine the OP already had points in their account, and last activity was 17.5 months ago. Family transfer comes in, but this doesn't count as activity. 2 weeks later, all the points are expired. Are you saying the family transfer points should be exempt in that case?

That's really no different then what happened here except that the OP's point balance was zero rather than positive. Either way, family transfer points don't count as activity.

(I don't agree that this is fair, by the way. The whole "point" of points expiration is to reduce QF's liability from the millions of points lying dormant in unused FF accounts. In this case the points did not lie dormant for 18 months in either the sender's or the receiver's account. I sincerely hope QF will give the points back - but I don't think you can argue what happened is actually against the T&C's.)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It makes sense, once an account has had no activity on it for 18 months all points in it expire, and family transfer does not count as activity. It's completely within the letter of the rules.

Think of another scenario - imagine the OP already had points in their account, and last activity was 17.5 months ago. Family transfer comes in, but this doesn't count as activity. 2 weeks later, all the points are expired. Are you saying the family transfer points should be exempt in that case?

That's really no different then what happened here except that the OP's point balance was zero rather than positive. Either way, family transfer points don't count as activity.

(I don't agree that this is fair, by the way. The whole "point" of points expiration is to reduce QF's liability from the millions of points lying dormant in unused FF accounts. In this case the points did not lie dormant for 18 months in either the sender's or the receiver's account. I sincerely hope QF will give the points back - but I don't think you can argue what happened is actually against the T&C's.)

there is a distinction. you are saying something is not 'against' the terms and conditions. I am saying that this scenario is not covered by the terms and conditions.

just because something is not inconsistent with the terms and conditions doesn't mean it is going to be read as binding. that would require someone to read the terms and conditions to extend over and above what is actually written. something which courts in the situation of a form contract would be reluctant to do.

the concept that a company would allow you to transfer points into an account which then expire immediately is something that would need to be more closely examined.

in any event, qantas can easily make changes to the terms and conditions to clarify the situation. this could include text that points can only be transferred to active accounts (and it is the obligation of the transferor to ensure an account is active), or it could simply block such transactions.

 

[lovetravellingoz]

There is a term in business called Goodwill.

Hopefully in this case despite the clear T&C Qantas will choose to exercise it as this is a very unusual case.


Also:
9.2.2 All Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member). For this purpose, Points earned in relation to Eligible Flights are deemed to be earned on the date the Eligible Flight was taken. Within 60 days of the Points expiration date, Qantas will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) A warning is displayed to Members within the Points Balance section of Your Summary on qantas.com;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.


So did Qantas do a, b & c?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There is a term in business called Goodwill.

Hopefully in this case despite the clear T&C Qantas will choose to exercise it as this is a very unusual case.


Also:
9.2.2 All Points held in a Qantas Frequent Flyer account of a non-Active Member will expire at midnight Sydney, Australia time at the end of the 18th consecutive month for which the Member has not earned Points or Status Credits or redeemed Points (excluding any transfer of Points to or from an Eligible Family Member). For this purpose, Points earned in relation to Eligible Flights are deemed to be earned on the date the Eligible Flight was taken. Within 60 days of the Points expiration date, Qantas will notify Members of the number of Points that are about to expire and the expiration date as follows:
(a) A warning is displayed to Members within the Points Balance section of Your Summary on qantas.com;
(b) Members who continue to receive paper activity statements, will receive an activity statement which includes a notification that Points are about to expire; and
(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.


So did Qantas do a, b & c?

yes - Qantas did A and C.

however the argument is that 9.2.2 is not applicable in the case of an already non-active account. 9.2.2 cannot apply because their is no 18 month period at the time the points are transferred. That period has already expired.

As there can't be an 18th consecutive month (it was into month 60 or whatever it was), then the rest of 9.2.2 which says 'for this purpose' we will do A/B/C is not really applicable.

 

[Mwenenzi]

From news.com.au:- How to ensure you don’t lose your Frequent Flyer points | News.com.au
In this case points were returned

 

[SeatBackForward]

Think of another scenario - imagine the OP already had points in their account, and last activity was 17.5 months ago. Family transfer comes in, but this doesn't count as activity. 2 weeks later, all the points are expired. Are you saying the family transfer points should be exempt in that case?

Do *all* points expire? Or only those obtained 18months before?

 

[hcsneb111]

there is a distinction. you are saying something is not 'against' the terms and conditions. I am saying that this scenario is not covered by the terms and conditions.

just because something is not inconsistent with the terms and conditions doesn't mean it is going to be read as binding. that would require someone to read the terms and conditions to extend over and above what is actually written. something which courts in the situation of a form contract would be reluctant to do.

the concept that a company would allow you to transfer points into an account which then expire immediately is something that would need to be more closely examined.

in any event, qantas can easily make changes to the terms and conditions to clarify the situation. this could include text that points can only be transferred to active accounts (and it is the obligation of the transferor to ensure an account is active), or it could simply block such transactions.

I agree that this particular scenario is not covered in the T&C.

Spoke with QFF Rep yesterday and asked the question "what would have happened if the points were transferred on the 30/12/13?" Reply was that they would have expired the following day!

How would you be notified of points expiring if they expired the following day? Not in line with the T&C!

Account opened Dec 1998
Assume points were earned on trip to bali which i assume would have expired 3 years later as there was no activity since 1998 to present
Points transferred from mother (active account) mid October 2013
Points expired 31/12/13 due to no activity

My question is how the expiry date of 31/12/13 generated in their system as in theory the points should have expired immediately but this would also break the T&C of not notifying member of points expiring.

Has the expiry date of 31/12/13 been generated to allow the minimum notice period for expiry of 60 days?

 

[Mwenenzi]

Do *all* points expire? Or only those obtained 18months before?

My understanding is all points would expire as points transfer is not an elgible activity. But may be after the 60 days notice. Points expire in non active accounts. If this was not the case people could transfer from account to account and the points would never expire.