100,000 points taken in 11 weeks QFF

[Hvr]

Sounds like a scenario that has fallen between the cracks.
Imagine this:

1/ I have an inactive account. Mum transfers points to me. I receive an email saying points going to expire within 60 days. I redeem an award (a MASA for best value) or something to keep account active. At the end of 60 days, QF cancels my award and confiscates my points. Nothing within the T&C that prevents them from doing so!

<snip>

Actually once the MASA is booked the account has had activity and the 18 month period recommences. The T&Cs specifically note what activity resets the clock.

The OP has admitted they received two emails from Qantas advising them of the impending forfeiture of the points due to inactivity. IMHO the fact that the OP didn't read them until after the points had been forfeited doesn't mean they have any special claim to having them restored.

Reading the OPs posts I believe that Qantas has done everything possible to ensure that the account holder was aware that the points were going to expire. Sometimes people need to take personal responsibility for their (in)actions and wear the consequences.

This is one of those times.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Actually once the MASA is booked the account has had activity and the 18 month period recommences. The T&Cs specifically note what activity resets the clock.

The OP has admitted they received two emails from Qantas advising them of the impending forfeiture of the points due to inactivity. IMHO the fact that the OP didn't read them until after the points had been forfeited doesn't mean they have any special claim to having them restored.

Reading the OPs posts I believe that Qantas has done everything possible to ensure that the account holder was aware that the points were going to expire. Sometimes people need to take personal responsibility for their (in)actions and wear the consequences.

This is one of those times.

we would have to see the warning message sent, and how prominent it was.

if a member was not expecting their points to expire, they would have no reason to look for the advice on expiry.

 

[ermen]

Actually once the MASA is booked the account has had activity and the 18 month period recommences. The T&Cs specifically note what activity resets the clock.
.

I disagree. As per a strict reading of the T&C, the 100k points had arrived Dead on Arrival because there was no activity in the 18 mths prior to the arrival of the points into the inactive account. Whilst future booking of a MASA qualifies as activity and will extend the points by 18 mths, that would presumably only apply to points that were "alive" validly at that time of qualifying activity. Definitionally, the 100k was already dead, so I think no amount of future qualifying activity should strictly be able to remedy this (under the T&C).

 

[markis10]

I disagree. As per a strict reading of the T&C, the 100k points had arrived Dead on Arrival because there was no activity in the 18 mths prior to the arrival of the points into the inactive account. Whilst future booking of a MASA qualifies as activity and will extend the points by 18 mths, that would presumably only apply to points that were "alive" validly at that time of qualifying activity. Definitionally, the 100k was already dead, so I think no amount of future qualifying activity should strictly be able to remedy this (under the T&C).

How can they be dead if you have not been given the warnings required, T&Cs go both ways and the courts look on unfairness regardless of contract law unfavourably.

 

[ermen]

How can they be dead if you have not been given the warnings required, T&Cs go both ways and the courts look on unfairness regardless of contract law unfavourably.

Exactly... That is why im trying to illustrate to hvr that you cant read the TnC too literally...
OP should get 18 mths instead of 2 mths because its really unconscionable to allow him to be put in such a predicament in the first instant...

 

[Buzzard]

Hopefully with intervention by Red Roo there will be a satisfactory outcome, either reinstate the points or return to sender.

Hopefully the OP will let us know the outcome.

 

[Hvr]

How can they be dead if you have not been given the warnings required, T&Cs go both ways and the courts look on unfairness regardless of contract law unfavourably.

The OP has admitted that they received and ignored two emails from Qantas. When the OP eventually read them, they realised that they were warning of the imminent cancellation of the points.

So Qantas has sent the appropriate warnings and the OP ignored them, ultimately to their detriment.

Just because the OP ignored the warnings doesn't mean they can argue that they weren't sent.

 

[markis10]

The OP has admitted that they received and ignored two emails from Qantas. When the OP eventually read them, they realised that they were warning of the imminent cancellation of the points.

So Qantas has sent the appropriate warnings and the OP ignored them, ultimately to their detriment.

Just because the OP ignored the warnings doesn't mean they can argue that they weren't sent.

I have no argument there, just pointing out that it's not possible for QF to cancel points instantly without giving th warnings required. Of course there is the fundamental fact that points have 18months of life, transferring them to a dormant account seems to unfairly end their life, not exactly fair.

 

[ermen]

The OP has admitted that they received and ignored two emails from Qantas. When the OP eventually read them, they realised that they were warning of the imminent cancellation of the points.

So Qantas has sent the appropriate warnings and the OP ignored them, ultimately to their detriment.

Just because the OP ignored the warnings doesn't mean they can argue that they weren't sent.

QFF could just 60 days warning that the points will expire and take the points away from the OP at the end even if he had had qualifying activity in the interim becus definitionslly, the points were already dead on arrival.

QFF may argue that they gave the OP 60 days to rectify the problem but i would argue that this insufficient and that QFF had allowed unconscionable conduct to even let him be out in such a situation in the first instance.

In any case, i am sure OP will get his points back... So no need to pre judge QFF

 

[amaroo]

11 weeks expiry is too tough, unreasonable and outright unacceptable!

I feel confident that QFF will reverse this appalling decision.... Thank Goodness for AFF and other social medium

 

[opusman]

Of course there is the fundamental fact that points have 18months of life

That's where the misunderstanding is. Any given point does not have "18 months of life". Any given point has indefinite life as long as the account within which it resides has qualifying activity within the last 18 months.

If you go 18 months without activity you don't lose all your points that were older than 18 months and keep the rest. They all expire. It's just that most points you earn will count as qualifying activity themselves, and therefore reset the clock - unless they came via a family transfer.

 

[Robert K]

if you break something because you didn't read the manual, does the manufacturer have to give you a new one?

 

[fersea]

The point is not when the account was "dead" but how anyone could argue the account was "alive" when there were zero points. Surely once points expire, the account is "dead" and doesn't become "alive" again until more points are received.

Look at it this way, if the OP had opened up an account purely for the purpose of receiving these points, then there wouldn't be this issue.

Opens up an interesting point - how can you cease to be a Qantas Frequent Flyer member? (Apart from dying - there have been posts about that - although normally from family members - not the actual member)

 

[fersea]

There is a good reason why airline points expire. They probably have to account for them on their balance sheet although, I am sure they use an actuary to determine the probability of points being used and book that figure.

For instance, I have 3200 points from Emirates Skywards from a one and only flight Sydney to Christchurch on a discount fare in probably 2010? Presumably they will expire one day but they are next to worthless, and apart from flying EK I am not sure how I could keep them active. There would be millions of accounts with a few hundred points in the account that will never get up to enough points to redeem anything.

 

[markis10]

That's where the misunderstanding is. Any given point does not have "18 months of life". Any given point has indefinite life as long as the account within which it resides has qualifying activity within the last 18 months.

If you go 18 months without activity you don't lose all your points that were older than 18 months and keep the rest. They all expire. It's just that most points you earn will count as qualifying activity themselves, and therefore reset the clock - unless they came via a family transfer.

Any given point should have 18 months life MINIMUM

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There is a good reason why airline points expire. They probably have to account for them on their balance sheet although, I am sure they use an actuary to determine the probability of points being used and book that figure.

I don't think there is 'good reason' why points expire... other than airlines wanting to escape liability... which in itself is not justification.

Everyone does it, again, that doesn't mean it's 'right'.

If the airline wanted to clear its books and was really interested in the welfare of its consumers it could print off a $$ travel voucher to the value of the remaining points and send it to the member.

as to why family points transfers don't count as activity? A court might look to see why that term is necessary to protect the company. Or is it an unfair contract term?

 

[ferrariz]

I don't think there is 'good reason' why points expire... other than airlines wanting to escape liability... which in itself is not justification.

Everyone does it, again, that doesn't mean it's 'right'.

As has been mentioned before in this thread, its for financial reasons. Unused Rewards Points have to be accrued for in the Balance Sheets and figure in the P&L. They are a deffered liability.

Personally, it's a service that airlines provide, which most of them do at no additional cost to customers. If you dont like the rules, dont sign up. Rewards Points aren't a right anyone is entitled to, its an additional incentive that comes with strings attached.. No 'right' and wrong here, just some products bette value than others

 

[cove]

I read somewhere that airlines cancel about 18% of frequent flyer points but with some airlines it can be as low as 10%.

 

[fersea]

I read somewhere that airlines cancel about 18% of frequent flyer points but with some airlines it can be as low as 10%.

So that's 18% of points. I wonder how many members that is? I would imagine it would be much more than that because I am sure there are plenty of accounts that have a handful of points in them.

especially as there are a million ways of getting free QFF membership these days.

 

[cove]

Probably 40% of members in the QF scheme will get zeroed or will not use the points. Those low points earners who go inactive are offset by a group of heavy users and redeemers who are great targets for Qantas to sell products.