2016 US Presidential Election and Fallout

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

I have to admit I was heavily against Trump coming into the election and much of his vainglorious approach and some of his policies remain cringeworthy but I do hope he continues to expose and crack down on fake news as much as possible, even if it requires criminalisation. It's such a stain on society that almost everyone doesn't realise how deeply they've been deluded by it.

Fake news predates Trump, and will only get worse with the current trend for people to not care about the truth. Is there a bias against Trump in the fake news stake? I would be astounded if there is not. The level at which he denigrates people and lies and then blames the media for reporting such, is never going to endear him to the publishers of "news" (sic).

Criminalisation? There are libel laws in every democracy I know of - some strong and some weak. Plenty of media outlets get sued every year. I wonder who will be brave enough to sue Trump?
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Criminalisation? There are libel laws in every democracy I know of - some strong and some weak. Plenty of media outlets get sued every year.

It's obviously not working very well. There's an increasing argument for those becoming stricter.

Unfortunately the majority of the world's press has moved from taking what is said and adding their own interpretation and spin (traditional journalism), to taking snippets of what is said, shifting them into irrelevant and absurd contexts outside the question/context to which it actually related, to fit their preferred narrative and falsely painting that as the person's opinion on the topic (extremist journalism), to having a narrative they're hellbent on selling and where they can't find anything real or even spinnable to fit it, just making stuff up completely (corrupt journalism).

The further we go along that spectrum, and noting that virtually all of the world's press is already at the extremist end with many at the corrupt stage, the worse society becomes. So for all his faults, I do hope he gets public support, preferably bipartisan although thats becoming impossible largely due to this issue, for this particular crusade, at least in the general sense (ie his focus is on organisations where he is the primary target of it, but the issue is much broader than that).
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

It's obviously not working very well. There's an increasing argument for those becoming stricter.

Unfortunately the majority of the world's press has moved from taking what is said and adding their own interpretation and spin (traditional journalism), to taking snippets of what is said, shifting them into irrelevant and absurd contexts outside the question/context to which it actually related, to fit their preferred narrative and falsely painting that as the person's opinion on the topic (extremist journalism), to having a narrative they're hellbent on selling and where they can't find anything real or even spinnable to fit it, just making stuff up completely (corrupt journalism).

The further we go along that spectrum, and noting that virtually all of the world's press is already at the extremist end with many at the corrupt stage, the worse society becomes. So for all his faults, I do hope he gets public support, preferably bipartisan although thats becoming impossible largely due to this issue, for this particular crusade, at least in the general sense (ie his focus is on organisations where he is the primary target of it, but the issue is much broader than that).

Trump isn't the main target of fake news, he's the main beneficiary of it. Just google pizzagate.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Trump isn't the main target of fake news, he's the main beneficiary of it. Just google pizzagate.

Some pretty impressive misinterpretation by the MSM going on eg travel bans when it is the temporary suspension of processing visas.Then that the court has rejected the EO as it was unconstitutional when they only found that possibly 2 groups of people might be affected when they shouldn't.Even that is not accepted by all experts eg a retired Federal Apellate court judge now Professor of law at Stanford-
A Flawed Restraining of a Flawed Order | Hoover Institution
One of the 3 judges of the Appeals court in San Francisco that upheld the ban on the EO has had second thoughts and now wants the full Appeals Court to review the decision-
Appeals court judge wants vote on whether to reconsider travel ban ruling | TheHill

Then of course many including here say that no one from the 7 countries suspended from processing visas has committed terrorist offences in the USA.Wrong-
Study Reveals 72 Terrorists Came From Countries Covered by Trump Vetting Order | Center for Immigration Studies
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Some pretty impressive misinterpretation by the MSM going on eg travel bans when it is the temporary suspension of processing visas.Then that the court has rejected the EO as it was unconstitutional when they only found that possibly 2 groups of people might be affected when they shouldn't.Even that is not accepted by all experts eg a retired Federal Apellate court judge now Professor of law at Stanford-
A Flawed Restraining of a Flawed Order | Hoover Institution
One of the 3 judges of the Appeals court in San Francisco that upheld the ban on the EO has had second thoughts and now wants the full Appeals Court to review the decision-
Appeals court judge wants vote on whether to reconsider travel ban ruling | TheHill

Then of course many including here say that no one from the 7 countries suspended from processing visas has committed terrorist offences in the USA.Wrong-
Study Reveals 72 Terrorists Came From Countries Covered by Trump Vetting Order | Center for Immigration Studies


None of that is fake news. It is a difference of presentation and interpretation of real news.
A temporary suspension of visa processing has the effect of a travel ban. Trump has used the word "ban". So has Spicer.
I don't know if Conway has because I can't bear to watch Propaganda Barbie.
To argue that it is not a ban is just playing semantic games. Courts look at substance, not form.
The site in your first link is just one person's opinion. Any legal issue will have arguments on both sides. Otherwise lawyers would be entirely superfluous.
The site in your last link is not a news site and clearly has an ideological agenda.
Also it is running a straw man argument. Leaving aside their dubious definition of "terrorist", the point made by others is that no one from any of the 7 countries has committed a terrorist attack in the United States after being allowed in.
They don't refute that.
 
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Most of those 72 in that list of terrorist events were admitted to the US.Those events were committed in the USA.The list comes from a committee of the US Senate.So it seems you are reporting fake news that no one from the 7 countries has committed a terrorist attack in the USA after being allowed in.The article gives a link to the senate committee's findings.

And read the court judgement.It was a very limited attack on the EO.When Obamacare was similiarly found unconstitutional the appeals court didn't throw out the whole policy only those parts it found unconstitional.Why didn't they this time.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Caught a bit of the documentary "Trump's Divided States of America" on SBS tonight. Previously I thought Republicans were lunatic right-wingers, but it turns out they were the acceptable face of the deplorables that lurked behind. When a black man dared to be POTUS the hardliners in the "Tea Party" (think of a vomit of Cory Bernadi's) whipped the mob into a frenzy .... the result of which is Trump.


The weird thing is ... even now that he has turned out to be even nastier and more ignorant than the "Grab them by the cough" hero from the campaign trail, people on the right still feel obliged to defend him. Unbelievable!
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

And the Faifax gets into fake news-
As hate crimes surge following Donald Trump's election as President of the US, Nicole Trunfio has opened up about raising a mixed race son amid the racial tensions.
Nicole Trunfio speaks out amid US racial tension: 'My son is a product of love'

The link provided goes to this article-
New York: ​Corporate America has been called on to combat anti-Muslim hatred and enforce anti-discrimination laws to fill a perceived void from government after the election of US President Donald Trump.
........
According to the FBI's most recent hate crime figures released in November, there was a 67 per cent spike in incidents targeting Muslims in the US in 2015, and a seven per cent rise in hate crimes overall.
As hate crime spikes, American employers tasked with combating Muslim discrimination

Yes the Donald was responsible for a spike in hate crimes in 2015.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

And the Faifax gets into fake news-

Nicole Trunfio speaks out amid US racial tension: 'My son is a product of love'

The link provided goes to this article-

As hate crime spikes, American employers tasked with combating Muslim discrimination

Yes the Donald was responsible for a spike in hate crimes in 2015.

Ah - I see a pattern emerging. When you start to lose the argument, launch filibusters with multiple links followed by spurious claims, in the hope that no one actually clicks on them. This was almost amusing in the "Climate change is cough and coal is good for Australia" era, but it's getting a bit tiresome here. No one is saying that Trump was responsible for hate crimes in 2015. To say otherwise is a despicable lie. Isn't it?
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Most of those 72 in that list of terrorist events were admitted to the US.Those events were committed in the USA.The list comes from a committee of the US Senate.So it seems you are reporting fake news that no one from the 7 countries has committed a terrorist attack in the USA after being allowed in.The article gives a link to the senate committee's findings.

And read the court judgement.It was a very limited attack on the EO.When Obamacare was similiarly found unconstitutional the appeals court didn't throw out the whole policy only those parts it found unconstitional.Why didn't they this time.


I have read the court judgement and understand such interlocutory proceedings.
The judgement is on the White House request to lift the stay order. Which was denied.
There has not been a determination on the substantive issue of the constitutionality of the executive order per se.

I'm not sure which judgement against Obama you are referring to but as you refer to findings of unconstitutionality it was clearly a judgement on the substantive merits of an executive order or other instrument.
That would be why they only struck out the unconstitutional parts.

As there has been no substantive hearing on the merits, let alone any finding yet as to which, if any, parts of Trump's muslim ban (his own description) executive order are unconsitutional, the appeals court couldn't pick and choose.
The whole executive order remains stayed.

You're comparing apples with oranges.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

The judge then read the whole judgement-
The Ninth Circuit did not hold that aliens abroad who do not presently hold visas or green cards have any constitutional right to travel to the United States. That is the vast majority of applications of the executive order. The court spent several paragraphs explaining why the Order cannot constitutionally be applied to green card holders. But the Administration says the executive order never properly applied to green card holders, and after initial confusion about that question, has not applied it to them. In court, the government also conceded the Order could not apply to previously admitted aliens temporarily abroad. The Ninth Circuit panel stated that in addition to these two classes, the Order might also be unconstitutional as applied to unlawful aliens now inside the country and to some other aliens with close relations to U.S. citizens.
Even assuming the court is right about all four groups (which is far from certain), the fact remains that the Order is constitutional with respect to the vast majority of its applications. Thus, the temporary restraining order (TRO) halting the Order in its entirety is improper. The Ninth Circuit did not dispute that the TRO is overbroad. The court refused to narrow the TRO solely because the government’s concessions did not extend to two of the four classes the court thinks might be entitled to protection: “There might be persons covered by the TRO who do not have viable due process claims, but the Government’s proposed revision leaves out at least some who do.” That is no reason not to narrow the TRO with respect to all the many applications to which the Order is plainly constitutional.
The court then said: “More generally, even if the TRO might be overbroad in some respects, it is not our role to try, in effect, to rewrite the Executive Order.” That is precisely backwards. If the State of Washington’s case is a facial challenge, the existence of a nontrivial number of constitutional applications is reason to reject the challenge. If the State of Washington’s case is an as-applied challenge, relief must be confined to those applications that are unconstitutional. The cases are not precisely parallel, but it bears mention that when the Supreme Court found the Obamacare statute unconstitutional in some but not all respects, it went out of its way to preserve the rest.

By the way thank you for putting forward reasoned arguments <redacted>
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Such venom in this thread.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Did I hear the Trumpster on ABC TV breakfast show this morn stating to American people that the refugee re-settlement agreed to by the Obama Admin was to 'take ~1,200 illegal immigrants who are being held in Australian jails'? Interesting interpretation to say the least - or maybe that was Fake News? Or maybe he was delivering Alternative Facts?
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Did I hear the Trumpster on ABC TV breakfast show this morn stating to American people that the refugee re-settlement agreed to by the Obama Admin was to 'take ~1,200 illegal immigrants who are being held in Australian jails'? Interesting interpretation to say the least - or maybe that was Fake News? Or maybe he was delivering Alternative Facts?

I think that is how he initially interpreted and/or was told about the deal.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Some pretty impressive misinterpretation by the MSM going on eg travel bans when it is the temporary suspension of processing visas.Then that the court has rejected the EO as it was unconstitutional when they only found that possibly 2 groups of people might be affected when they shouldn't.Even that is not accepted by all experts eg a retired Federal Apellate court judge now Professor of law at Stanford-
A Flawed Restraining of a Flawed Order | Hoover Institution
One of the 3 judges of the Appeals court in San Francisco that upheld the ban on the EO has had second thoughts and now wants the full Appeals Court to review the decision-
Appeals court judge wants vote on whether to reconsider travel ban ruling | TheHill

Then of course many including here say that no one from the 7 countries suspended from processing visas has committed terrorist offences in the USA.Wrong-
Study Reveals 72 Terrorists Came From Countries Covered by Trump Vetting Order | Center for Immigration Studies

Oh and a fact check of those 72 cases.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ctivity/?postshare=9581486995069150&tid=ss_tw
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Personally I would consider material aid to Al Qaeda and similar organisations terrorist activity.
Plus those that had become citizens or permanent residents still came from elsewhere.
 
Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Personally I would consider material aid to Al Qaeda and similar organisations terrorist activity.
Plus those that had become citizens or permanent residents still came from elsewhere.


The point is not whether everyone from the 7 countries is a nice person. People are a mixed bag, wherever they're from.
Trump's argument is that the ban is necessary to protect Americans from further terrorist attacks which he alleges will happen in America if citizens of these countries are permitted to enter.
Based on an assertion that people from these 7 countries have been the perpetrators of such attacks in the past.
That argument doesn't hold up because no such attacks have occurred.
 
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