A320 German-wings accident in Southern France

[straitman]

This is why they created "aviation authorities" - pilots fly, others make the decision.

I don't understand your last comment.

nothing you have suggested makes more than a token, if any, improvement to the safety of the aircraft.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You are still overlooking the obvious that jb747 pointed out. That is that a pilot can, if he wishes, make the a/c go out of control very quickly. In this case for example all he had to do IF they were actually gaining entry into the coughpit is increase the rate of descent and hit the ground a whole lot quicker.

There are many ways to quickly disable an aircraft. This is a statement of fact NOT of opinion.

Yes but... in this case the co-pilot didn't do that. He waited till he was alone, cut off from the rest of the plane, and then acted. If he was going to crash the plane regardless, he could have done so at any other time, with the other pilot there. But he didn't.

Maybe he didn't have the guts to do it with someone else there. Maybe having someone else there made the human element too great for him to go through with it. Maybe if the pilot hadn't gone for a toilet break on this flight the plane would have made it safely.

Perhaps investigators will turn up evidence to say for certain 'this was the flight' he was going to crash. But if they don't, then no one will be able to say for certain that having someone else there wouldn't have prevented this incident.

On that basis, having a second person there at all times should logically provide reassurance not only to passengers, but to the other flight deck crew and cabin crew.

Sure any person or can probably carry out the physical act of crashing a plane. But the psychological element (particularly things that might work against a trigger) needs to be factored in as well.

Egyptair 990, Silkair 185, LAM 470 - in all cases the pilot responsible waited for the other member of the crew to leave the coughpit.

 

[doctork]

Haven't noticed it in VA or JQ - maybe it is more subtle.

Flew VA in J MEL-SYD. Captain took a while in the toilet. FA blocked access (but I didn't realise this until I tried to pass the curtain that VA pull across the forward galley). So VA more subtle but probably because of routine use of the curtain.

 

[UP4014]

You are still overlooking the obvious that jb747 pointed out. That is that a pilot can, if he wishes, make the a/c go out of control very quickly. In this case for example all he had to do IF they were actually gaining entry into the coughpit is increase the rate of descent and hit the ground a whole lot quicker.

There are many ways to quickly disable an aircraft. This is a statement of fact NOT of opinion.

Doesn't mean everyone has to die because of it and nothing should be done to reduce the risk by .1%.

If QF for eg said we are going to charge $20 more on all A380 flights of 400 pax (which comes to $8000) to improve coughpit security with an extra person then I say do it.

While not every event can be stopped if one could be I'm happy to pay incase it's me on that flight.

In an past Air Force One I looked in there were 4 pilot seats, two up front and two more 15' behind in case something happened at the very front, all seats had controls so the aircraft could be flown should the nose and front pilots have disappeared. Perhaps ahead of its time...

Matt

 

[amaroo]

I don't understand your last comment.

nothing you have suggested makes more than a token, if any, improvement to the safety of the aircraft.

What I've suggested is a third pilot http://www.australianfrequentflyer....gs-accident-southern-66946-2.html#post1219795

In regards to Aviation Authorities - they are absolutely the makers of the rules. What pilots or anyone else feel is totally irrelevant!

A casual search will show you that many airlines have enacted change.

 

[straitman]

Doesn't mean everyone has to die because of it and nothing should be done to reduce the risk by .1%.

Matt

If one pilot leaves the coughpit and anyone else comes in it really is irrelevant as they would not be able to stop the remaining one doing something/anything radical.

There are many things in life that are easier to control and fix and that we all just ignore and take for granted.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

If one pilot leaves the coughpit and anyone else comes in it really is irrelevant as they would not be able to stop the remaining one doing something/anything radical.

There are many things in life that are easier to control and fix and that we all just ignore and take for granted.

They may not be able to physically stop it, but they may deter the event ever taking place.

 

[legroom]

From the left field ....

Would it now be reasonable to override privacy issues if you're a pilot ?

E.g. all Medicare episodes and/or (anti depressant) medications be automatically sent to the Chief Pilot / Medical Officer of the employing airlines.

From press report, it appears he had had some 'time out' which may have involved consults +/- medications.

Not perfect (paying cash for consults and for medicines etc...) but better than reliance on self reporting or .... post mortem reviews.

Safeguards could be installed (heavy penalty for leaking info, for example).

Or, some sort of 6-monthly mental SIM test eg Beck Depression Inventory [disclaimer: I'm not a shrink].

Medical Boards actively encourage Drs to 'dob in' suspected impaired colleagues. Is there a similar mechanism for pilots ?

My 2c

 

[AVC]

They may not be able to physically stop it, but they may deter the event ever taking place.

Exactly my point with the air marshall. He wouldn't be there to fly the plane. He's there as a deterrent.

Much like any security guard. Except unlike most security guard, he's armed.

If the would-be perpetrator has to wait until he's alone he would think twice. All alone there's no one to stop him. If he's being guarded, he may think twice, because there's a chance he could be stopped. Especially if the one guarding is trained in CQB and not simply cabin crew.

Is there even room for a flight engineer in an A320? Are there jump seats?

 

[anat0l]

Just to throw in a different angle here, even though the investigation seems definitive by now...

Is there any other conceivable scenario that could result in the same evidence but may not have been the result of the pilot wishing to commit suicide / mass manslaughter or murder?

 

[jb747]

Jb747, the gibberish has been explained. Q-Coffin is the point where the aircraft has climbed to an altitude where the speed differential between the onset of low speed stall buffet and the onset of high speed Mach buffet approaches zero. AKA Coffin Corner

Is it still gibberish

Oh, I know what coffin corner is, but it's something you worry about in a a U2, not an airliner.

 

[dajop]

If QF for eg said we are going to charge $20 more on all A380 flights of 400 pax (which comes to $8000) to improve coughpit security with an extra person then I say do it.

What I've suggested is a third pilot http://www.australianfrequentflyer....gs-accident-southern-66946-2.html#post1219795

Tell me. Where are all these thousands of extra pilots coming from?

 

[dajop]

Exactly my point with the air marshall. He wouldn't be there to fly the plane. He's there as a deterrent.

All very well until a mentally unbalanced air marshall goes feral. I supposed though that can happen already, but chances are he/she won't be in the coughpit.

 

[trixydoza]

eg Beck Depression Inventory [disclaimer: I'm not a shrink]

Yeah, no kidding.

It was great when this was mostly a forum for frequent flyers about flying frequently.

 

[amaroo]

Tell me. Where are all these thousands of extra pilots coming from?

The same place they got the hundreds of thousands staffing the security lines. Demand - drives qualifications!

 

[dajop]

The same place they got the hundreds of thousands staffing the security lines. Demand - drives qualifications!

Wow. Just wow - in a thread where we are discussing airline safety. I am just gobsmacked.

 

[amaroo]

Wow. Just wow - in a thread where we are discussing airline safety. I am just gobsmacked.

So you don't believe demand drives qualifications? All sorts of people do all sorts of jobs - it appears you have a pretty narrow view on things!

 

[legroom]

Yeah, no kidding.

It was great when this was mostly a forum for frequent flyers about flying frequently.

How many times do we need to discuss seat 71D ?

Back on topic: frequent and infrequent flyers both need sane pilots in the coughpits.

Discussing sanity without touching on depression is rather pointless, wouldn't you agree ?

From what we know so far, this tragic case had the hallmarks of a suicidal mission from a 'mental' pilot.

 

[dajop]

So you don't believe demand drives qualifications? All sorts of people do all sorts of jobs - it appears you have a pretty narrow view on things!

I do, but I find the comparison to security personnel somewhat puzzling, as the skill set is somewhat different, and the time it takes to acquire a satisfactory skill set a lot longer. You can click your fingers in a matter of months, if not a year or two you could increase the security personnel at aiports easily by 33%. It takes time and experience to become a capable pilot. Also there are a lot of people I'd suggest don't have the mental capability (thinking in 3D) to become pilots.

Also I am pretty sure there have been more than just one or two incidents over the last 10 years where the inexperience of the person piloting the aircraft has contributed in some way - if not in a significant way, to fatal, tragic crashes of commercial airliners. Solving one problem can potentially create a bigger problem elsewhere.

 

[trippin_the_rift]

Most of us on here fly on a regular basis so let's move on confident in our crew and remember that air travel is still the safest way to travel.

I read recently that elevator is actually the safest mode of travel ;p