A320 German-wings accident in Southern France

[amaroo]

I do, but I find the comparison to security personnel somewhat puzzling, as the skill set is somewhat different, and the time it takes to acquire a satisfactory skill set a lot longer. You can click your fingers in a matter of months, if not a year or two you could increase the security personnel at aiports easily by 33%. It takes time and experience to become a capable pilot. Also there are a lot of people I'd suggest don't have the mental capability (thinking in 3D) to become pilots.

Also I am pretty sure there have been more than just one or two incidents over the last 10 years where the inexperience of the person piloting the aircraft has contributed in some way - if not in a significant way, to fatal, tragic crashes of commercial airliners. Solving one problem can potentially create a bigger problem elsewhere.

That's where the demand bit kicks in. I've no doubt there are more than a few working in security with qualifications that would astound many.

Isn't there a pilot glut? Certainly many kicked up a fuss when QF wanted to ditch a few hundred.

 

[N860CR]

There are clearly a few people here with some strange agendas.

This is a very sad incident. However it is a random incident that realistically couldn't have been predicted (regardless of what hindsight tells us) and is a massively rare event. I can count the number of "pilot suicides" on one hand. The world can be a scary place and unfortunately we will never be able to make it 100% secure.

Airline pilots are probably under the highest level of scrutiny of any profession. Other than stringent medicals, airlines mandate three or six monthly simulator assessments, annual inflight assessments, annual emergency procedure assessments, regular security checks, security training etc etc. What can be done has been done. There will always be a rogue few, be them teachers, doctors, pilots, lawyers etc etc. One cannot remove the human from everything (and if they did, we'd all be unemployed and nobody would be flying anywhere).

 

[medhead]

If one pilot leaves the coughpit and anyone else comes in it really is irrelevant as they would not be able to stop the remaining one doing something/anything radical.

There are many things in life that are easier to control and fix and that we all just ignore and take for granted.

Some of these posts are sounding awfully like the people who want to save themselves from a 0.00005% risk from radiation, but then completely ignore pedestrian crossing lights.

 

[medhead]

Exactly my point with the air marshall. He wouldn't be there to fly the plane. He's there as a deterrent.

Much like any security guard. Except unlike most security guard, he's armed.

If the would-be perpetrator has to wait until he's alone he would think twice. All alone there's no one to stop him. If he's being guarded, he may think twice, because there's a chance he could be stopped. Especially if the one guarding is trained in CQB and not simply cabin crew.

Is there even room for a flight engineer in an A320? Are there jump seats?

So a hypothetical pilot twitches the controls to put the aircraft into an uncontrolled spinning dive. The security guard shots him in the head. Then what? The pilots in thread have already said a few times that being watched by someone who has no idea doesn't stop a pilot from crashing an aircraft.

 

[legroom]

.... This is a very sad incident. However it is a random incident that realistically couldn't have been predicted (regardless of what hindsight tells us)....

Had you been the Chief Pilot and you had been able to know that one of your pilots had a 6-mo mental breakdown, would you (a) do nothing or (b) do something as long as he passes the technical SIM tests and the physical examination (eyesight, BP, PR, treadmill etc ...) ?

I'm inclined to think that such information would be quite helpful.

Yes, all the tests in the world may not detect a psychopath but unless it's looked at, many identifiable 'mental' cases may go undetected.

The hoops you mentioned seem to refer to technical and physical aspects, not the mental one.

.... What can be done has been done.....

How can you be so sure ?

Case closed ?

No further reviews are required ?

You may be right in the end but I'd counsel keeping an open mind.

 

[N860CR]

Had you been the Chief Pilot and you had been able to know that one of your pilots had a 6-mo mental breakdown, would you (a) do nothing or (b) do something as long as he passes the technical SIM tests and the physical examination (eyesight, BP, PR, treadmill etc ...) ?

I'm inclined to think that such information would be quite helpful.

Yes, all the tests in the world may not detect a psychopath but unless it's looked at, many identifiable 'mental' cases may go undetected.

The hoops you mentioned seem to refer to technical and physical aspects, not the mental one.



How can you be so sure ?

Case closed ?

No further reviews are required ?

You may be right in the end but I'd counsel keeping an open mind.

Without stepping out of line, I have held such a role before and when somebody takes time off for an extended period they require a medical clearance before returning to work. This medical clearance will obviously focus on the reason for the time off work. If the medical process was passed (and remember this is completed by a Doctor), then the chief pilot will commence return to work processes.

Obviously, after every accident there's "more that can be done", however the calling for pilots heads as has occurred by certain people in this thread is not the answer. At the end of the day, the crew are in command of the aircraft. The crew are the most qualified people to be on the flight deck. There's a point when you have to trust the system, and the system works. It's nearly impossible to safeguard against individual people who slip through a very effective system.

 

[juddles]

Exactly my point with the air marshall. He wouldn't be there to fly the plane. He's there as a deterrent.

Much like any security guard. Except unlike most security guard, he's armed.......

Forgive me, but I feel MUCH safer NOT having an armed guard in the coughpit. And my dislike of them is simply a numbers-game thing:

I do not hold pilots up as some sort of super-heroes, to me they are just professionals doing a job, just like in many countless other workplaces. But due to a culture that has been there since planes were invented, the level of ¨professionalism¨ is very high. For someone to get through to sitting in the coughpit of a commercial airliner requires many years of not stuffing up. I suspect that the chances of mental illness being detected in a pilot are probably higher that those of detecting same in a security guard (¨air marshall¨).

I also am suspicious (totally my opinions and feelings here - obviously), of why anyone would want to become an airborne security guard.

A pilot must have a passion for flying, or at the very least a love of the notion of being a pilot, to get through the years of work required to make it. What is the passion that drives an air marshall to become one?? A love of guns? A love of the idea of being the only person to be armed in a plane full of people?

And a security guard would have to sit in the coughpit the whole time. If he went back to the cabin every terrorist would know exactly where to get a gun.

One thing I will add to this thread is simply an observation: both in the case of the Malaysian guy heading off south into the never never, and this guy gliding down into the hills, both incidents involved people who were VERY passionate about flying, to the extent of home flight simulators, etc. To these people I suspect they wanted those last moments to be in control of the plane, not just do some crazy dive. I also know that some people are capable of mass-murder by remote, but could not bring themselves to slap a lady in the face. These people may well be disuaded from attempting their picture-perfect suicide, if they had a hostie or someone in the way. For that I support two-person rules.


Statistically though, even despite the AMAZING AND UNPRECEDENTED interest the world media has in crashes this year, I am still more fearful of my cab ride to the airport than the flight itself.

 

[Denali]

I read recently that elevator is actually the safest mode of travel ;p

Not my office elevator - the thing is out so often that staff have keys to the emergency stairwell doors and prefer hiking up and down ten flights than risk the, "Its broken every day ending with a Y" elevator.

In regards to this situation, I keep thinking that employers need to create/encourage staff to discuss emotional issues and stresses/more frequent assessments/support are needed. I keep thinking about the Silk Air pilot that had financial issues and flew his plane into the ocean.

I don't think a 3rd person watching them will stop a person truly intent on doing something like this but its like shoplifting, if you know you are being watched, you don't do it. Maybe with another person there, it will sway a pilot who was about to make a very tragic decision.

 

[AVC]

Ever seen a security guard in a bank?
They are not armed. So what good are they? They are a human factor. A deterrent is all. Is about that, not about the air marshall shooting the rogue pilot. Apart from the fact that the round would, at that range, go straight through the guy. And out the other side for even more bad news.

and how was the captain using an axe to try to break down the door. Is it normal procedure to take the fire axe to the WC?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I am a bit suspicious why any pilot would be against the two-person rule.

It is easy to implement. It costs nothing. I am not aware of any negative impacts of the policy from the US experience where it is standard procedure. It may not be foolproof, but it may yield benefits.

I can't see a reason not to follow that line of action, and at the moment, airlines dragging their feet are looking increasingly isolated.

This article sums up the issue quite well: Germanwings: Australia still deciding on two in coughpit rule | afr.com

 

[MEL_Traveller]

and how was the captain using an axe to try to break down the door. Is it normal procedure to take the fire axe to the WC?

the axe is a standard part of emergency/safety equipment on board many aircraft. There is some conjecture as to whether the pilot used one in this situation. Locations of fire axes are understandably not public knowledge, but at least on some aircraft types, at some point in time, they have been accessible from the passenger cabin. IIRC an axe was used in the Asiana accident to try and deflate a slide which had deployed inside the cabin trapping a flight attendant.

 

[whatmeworry]

Overnight investigators revealed the young pilot had a medical certificate covering the day of the crash, which deemed him unfit for work. He last saw his doctor 2 weeks ago.

I am guessing but it seems the pilot was waiting for at least 2 (or more) weeks for an opportunity...

Germanwings flight 4U9525 crash: Investigators find torn up sick notes in Andreas Lubitz's home

 

[legroom]

the axe is a standard part of emergency/safety equipment on board many aircraft. It is accessible from the passenger cabin. IIRC an axe was used in the Asiana accident to try and deflate a slide which had deployed inside the cabin trapping a flight attendant.

Is the axe under dual key access ?

Someday somewhere we would have 'The Shining' in the air otherwise.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has issued a safety information bulletin recommending all EU carriers implement a two-person rule: http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2015-04

 

[amaroo]

Overnight investigators revealed the young pilot had a medical certificate covering the day of the crash, which deemed him unfit for work. He last saw his doctor 2 weeks ago.

I am guessing but it seems the pilot was waiting for at least 2 (or more) weeks for an opportunity...

Went on a spending spree during that period Germanwings flight 4U9525 crash: Andreas Lubitz bought two luxury cars days before crash, report claims

 

[rechoboam]

Security guards in the coughpit? Absolutely ridiculous idea.
Given the relevance of mental illness to this issue, imagine the overall benefits to society if the $$$$$$ that would be spent on coughpit guards were spent treating the mentally ill who have completely inadequate resources now.
It seems to me that this problem could perhaps have been avoided if safety procedures at the airline already in place (regarding pilot illnesses) had worked more smoothly.

 

[straitman]

I am a bit suspicious why any pilot would be against the two-person rule.

It is easy to implement. It costs nothing. I am not aware of any negative impacts of the policy from the US experience where it is standard procedure. It may not be foolproof, but it may yield benefits.

I can't see a reason not to follow that line of action, and at the moment, airlines dragging their feet are looking increasingly isolated.

This article sums up the issue quite well: Germanwings: Australia still deciding on two in coughpit rule | afr.com

I suspect that no pilot would be against the two person rule but need to reinforce, again, that it is not the great saviour that many see it to be. It really has limited benefit.

It is important that the two person rule is not introduced as a knee jerk reaction and then other possibly more beneficial options ignored.

Security guards in the coughpit? Absolutely ridiculous idea.
Given the relevance of mental illness to this issue, imagine the overall benefits to society if the $$$$$$ that would be spent on coughpit guards were spent treating the mentally ill who have completely inadequate resources now.
It seems to me that this problem could perhaps have been avoided if safety procedures at the airline already in place (regarding pilot illnesses) had worked more smoothly.

Agreed on both parts.

 

[straitman]

Yes but... in this case the co-pilot didn't do that. He waited till he was alone, cut off from the rest of the plane, and then acted. If he was going to crash the plane regardless, he could have done so at any other time, with the other pilot there. But he didn't.

Maybe he didn't have the guts to do it with someone else there. Maybe having someone else there made the human element too great for him to go through with it. Maybe if the pilot hadn't gone for a toilet break on this flight the plane would have made it safely.

Perhaps investigators will turn up evidence to say for certain 'this was the flight' he was going to crash. But if they don't, then no one will be able to say for certain that having someone else there wouldn't have prevented this incident.

On that basis, having a second person there at all times should logically provide reassurance not only to passengers, but to the other flight deck crew and cabin crew.

Sure any person or can probably carry out the physical act of crashing a plane. But the psychological element (particularly things that might work against a trigger) needs to be factored in as well.

Egyptair 990, Silkair 185, LAM 470 - in all cases the pilot responsible waited for the other member of the crew to leave the coughpit.

It is all about power. As they get closer to getting in he simply could increase the descent rate.

Replace the pilot with another unqualified person who has no idea of what's occurring or how to do anything with the a/c has little or no benefit. I would struggle to work out how to wrestle back control of an A320 and I have much more flying experience than most here.

 

[drron]

Security guards in the coughpit? Absolutely ridiculous idea.
Given the relevance of mental illness to this issue, imagine the overall benefits to society if the $$$$$$ that would be spent on coughpit guards were spent treating the mentally ill who have completely inadequate resources now.
It seems to me that this problem could perhaps have been avoided if safety procedures at the airline already in place (regarding pilot illnesses) had worked more smoothly.

Sorry but that fellow did not tell LH about his problem during his training.
He did not tell them about his sick note.
Germany are very strict on not disclosing medical histories.
Not LH's fault.
Surely in this situation his doctor should be able to inform the authorities.
Here in Australia we are compelled to inform authorities if we suspect someone should not be driving.
How much more important is it in the case of a commercial airline pilot.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

It is all about power. As they get closer to getting in he simply could increase the descent rate.

Replace the pilot with another unqualified person who has no idea of what's occurring or how to do anything with the a/c has little or no benefit. I would struggle to work out how to wrestle back control of an A320 and I have much more flying experience than most here.

There are two separate issues here, and you are addressing only one of those.

There is the physical act of crashing the plane... input to controls to cause the event. I agree another person in the coughpit may have little ability to counter that. On a long haul one pilot could do it while the other is sleeping.

The second aspect is psychological. The person has the ability to crash the plane, but doesn't because there is someone else there... perhaps the presence of another human makes the situation more real. The pilot is not cut-off from reality behind a fortress door.

The fact that pilot murder/suicides tend to take place when the pilot is alone, despite the fact they don't need to be if they really wanted to crash the plane, gives some reason to explore the psychological aspect. As an immediate measure, a two-person rule seems to make sense.