A320 German-wings accident in Southern France

[jb747]

Don't forget what this guys previous job was....

To be quite honest, when I leave one person in the coughpit, I don't really want anyone else in there.

 

[mannej]

Sorry but that fellow did not tell LH about his problem during his training.
He did not tell them about his sick note.
Germany are very strict on not disclosing medical histories.
Not LH's fault.
Surely in this situation his doctor should be able to inform the authorities.
Here in Australia we are compelled to inform authorities if we suspect someone should not be driving.
How much more important is it in the case of a commercial airline pilot.

A lot of commentary on this accident forgets the difference between Australian and German patient confidentiality laws. This is an important example as to why it may not necessarily to review this to stop a repeat.

There are two separate issues here, and you are addressing only one of those.

There is the physical act of crashing the plane... input to controls to cause the event. I agree another person in the coughpit may have little ability to counter that. On a long haul one pilot could do it while the other is sleeping.

The second aspect is psychological. The person has the ability to crash the plane, but doesn't because there is someone else there... perhaps the presence of another human makes the situation more real. The pilot is not cut-off from reality behind a fortress door.

The fact that pilot murder/suicides tend to take place when the pilot is alone, despite the fact they don't need to be if they really wanted to crash the plane, gives some reason to explore the psychological aspect. As an immediate measure, a two-person rule seems to make sense.

Whilst a two person rule may seem to make sense from a perception POV, it isn't fool proof. Have a case like the FedEx jump seat maniac, and the outcome will be the same.

There are a number of issues that need to be looked at here and a two person on the deck policy only scratches the surface IMHO.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Whilst a two person rule may seem to make sense from a perception POV, it isn't fool proof. Have a case like the FedEx jump seat maniac, and the outcome will be the same.

There are a number of issues that need to be looked at here and a two person on the deck policy only scratches the surface IMHO.

We don't only implement safety measures that are fool proof.

There may be other measures that can be implemented as well.

 

[mannej]

We don't only implement safety measures that are fool proof.

There may be other measures that can be implemented as well.

That is correct, however there are bigger issues here then the number of people in a coughpit at any one time.

 

[legroom]

...... Replace the pilot with another unqualified person who has no idea of what's occurring or how to do anything with the a/c has little or no benefit. I would struggle to work out how to wrestle back control of an A320 and I have much more flying experience than most here.

You're correct in a sense.

However, the 2nd person would at least be able to unlock the door for the captain to come in, unless he/she is rendered unconscious by the rogue pilot first.

As JB alluded to elsewhere, rogues could do a lot of harm even if the captain is in place so yes, the two person rule is not a panacea.

.... which brings the Q: should the 2nd person be required to have some self defense skills etc ... in case the rogue pilot attempts to subdue him / her ?

Best cure is - as usual - prevention.

I'd argue for periodic psychological evaluation and blame-free reporting (both self and collegial) of suspected mental issues.

Pilots should have the security to seek help / report suspicions with no witch hunt impact on their careers once issues are dealt with.

First port of call should be the Chief Pilot and/or the Airline Chief Medical Officer.

*****

Were I a medico treating a commercial pilot with mental issues, I'd probably call up my Medical Defense Union to get a guidance on the legality and ethics of reporting him/her to his employer.

It's a minefield in Australia ATM I think and I'm not sure what the correct response would / should be: public safety vs confidentiality.

I'm sure the MDUs are thinking about this issue.

 

[OATEK]

Yesterday on our AY flight HEL-CDG the CSM went into the coughpit while one of the pilots took a toilet break.

 

[ozbeachbabe]

It is all about power. As they get closer to getting in he simply could increase the descent rate.

Replace the pilot with another unqualified person who has no idea of what's occurring or how to do anything with the a/c has little or no benefit. I would struggle to work out how to wrestle back control of an A320 and I have much more flying experience than most here.

You're correct in a sense.

However, the 2nd person would at least be able to unlock the door for the captain to come in, unless he/she is rendered unconscious by the rogue pilot first.

As JB alluded to elsewhere, rogues could do a lot of harm even if the captain is in place so yes, the two person rule is not a panacea.

.... which brings the Q: should the 2nd person be required to have some self defense skills etc ... in case the rogue pilot attempts to subdue him / her ?

I think as Legroom suggests it's more about having a 2nd person being able to open the coughpit door as opposed to swapping the coffee pot for the flight controls.

 

[whatmeworry]

Went on a spending spree during that period Germanwings flight 4U9525 crash: Andreas Lubitz bought two luxury cars days before crash, report claims

Early reports suggest he was having relationship problems. 2nd car might have been some type of big gesture.

 

[Pushka]

Today on an Air New Zealand flight, when one pilot left the coughpit, a flight attendant/crew moved in and another stayed just outside the door.

 

[opusman]

I bet the 99.99999% of pilots who aren't suicidal maniacs are just loving these developments.

 

[mannej]

I bet the 99.99999% of pilots who aren't suicidal maniacs are just loving these developments.

Or the self proclaimed experts

 

[whatmeworry]

Told his ex he was planning something big.

Maria, 26 (not her real name), told Bild newspaper that when she heard about the crash she remembered that he had said he was going do something "that would change the system" and "make everyone remember" him.
She added: "It didn't make sense at the time but now it all does."
Maria, who is thought to have met Lubitz at work, said he would wake up at night screaming in terror: "We're going down."

As the hunt continued for a motive for Lubitz's mass murder, it also emerged that he had recently split from his girlfriend, and appeared to have made a desperate last attempt to win her back by buying her a brand new Audi car only weeks ago. She appeared to have said no, as the car was never delivered.
Following Thursday's disclosures about Lubitz locking the captain out of the coughpit and putting flight 9525 into a terminal dive, a picture has emerged of Lubitz as a highly secretive man tormented by mental and possibly physical illness, as well as his failed relationship.

Germanwings flight 4U9525 crash: Andreas Lubitz planned gesture to 'make everyone remember' him

 

[ftm]

The idea of a second person seems logical. But what if that second person has the mental illness? Now you've left the only person capable of flying the plane alone with them.

 

[Foreigner]

List of airlines which have made it mandatory to having two persons in coughpit:

http://www.airlineratings.com/news/465/which-airlines-have-two-people-in-the-coughpit-at-all-times

 

[anat0l]

The idea of a second person seems logical. But what if that second person has the mental illness? Now you've left the only person capable of flying the plane alone with them.

That's a situation which is very difficult to catch and is not addressed by the 2 person coughpit rule (it doesn't immediately dismiss the idea, though).

That situation can only be minimised through a further measure (not so trivial) which would "screen" pilots further for mental illness / instability. Whether that means more regular, stringent psychological testing or what not is unclear.

I fear that this incident, based on the mental illness of the co-pilot, will further separate the mentally ill from society, especially in Germany. Yes, you can't be a pilot and have a mental illness, but the mentally ill should have resources available to them (apart from someone yelling at them everyday, "Snap out of it, you idiot, and be a real man!") and then when they are better, if they want to become a pilot, then their ability to do so is not categorically denied. Of course their history will precede them and they may be subject to additional testing, but that's part of the job (just like someone who applied to be a pilot with a history of cardiac problems).

 

[PLANT]

Gee I remember a time when the captain or co-pilot would leave to use the restrooms and that made two left(me being one) in the coughpit.....I ain't no pilot... So what bottle up pilots now? Squat female pilots in the jump seat????

 

[anat0l]

Or the self proclaimed experts

Yes we seem to have many of them here. We should give them a job at CASA or the like, because it seems the experts in the relevant cohorts are quite insufficient...

Today on an Air New Zealand flight, when one pilot left the coughpit, a flight attendant/crew moved in and another stayed just outside the door.

When the FA/crew was just outside the door, do you mean they were inside the coughpit or outside it, and was the door opened or closed?

If they were outside the coughpit and the door was closed, then that's no better than the situation that has just passed, and offers no further "psychological" barrier.

If they were inside the coughpit and the door was closed, then that's an implementation of the 2 person rule, which we can conclude from the discussions is mainly a psychological based mitigation measure more than a physical one, i.e. the second person is there at all times to try and prevent people from doing something adverse compared to as if they were alone.

As JB alluded to elsewhere, rogues could do a lot of harm even if the captain is in place so yes, the two person rule is not a panacea.

The problem is you have people here who seem to be content to the degree that it is a panacea. There is vilification of those who don't believe in immediate implementation and very little overall recognition of the problems.

.... which brings the Q: should the 2nd person be required to have some self defense skills etc ... in case the rogue pilot attempts to subdue him / her ?

I was thinking about this, but then I thought, well all people can study self-defence if they want to (they are not necessarily mandated by the company, unless you work for Cathay Pacific). This notion also doesn't address other issues which may result in the crash anyway. It may be a psychological deterrent like the 2 person rule in a way (e.g. "If I try to carry out this threat, I may not get away with it if the person next to me manages to physically stop me, incapacitate me and then opens the door..."), though it obviously requires more time to implement compared to the 2 person rule.

List of airlines which have made it mandatory to having two persons in coughpit:

Which airlines have two people in the coughpit at all times?

That's not as big a list as one would think it would be. Certainly denounces the flagrant assertion earlier in this thread that carriers who were not taking immediate action on this measure were looking very isolated.

 

[Pushka]

When the FA/crew was just outside the door, do you mean they were inside the coughpit or outside it, and was the door opened or closed?

If they were outside the coughpit and the door was closed, then that's no better than the situation that has just passed, and offers no further "psychological" barrier.

If they were inside the coughpit and the door was closed, then that's an implementation of the 2 person rule, which we can conclude from the discussions is mainly a psychological based mitigation measure more than a physical one, i.e. the second person is there at all times to try and prevent people from doing something adverse compared to as if they were alone.

One crew member was inside the coughpit with the other pilot. Another crew member was just by the closed door. Just as I posted originally.

 

[kpc]

The A380 has a toilet behind the coughpit door as it was built post Sept 11...this seems the best solution moving forwards but won't be realistcally possible on existing planes...

 

[AVC]

To be quite honest, when I leave one person in the coughpit, I don't really want anyone else in there.

Isn't there enough flight crew on an A380 to always have 2 up front?

Which brings up an interesting question regarding 2 pilot rule.
We need two pilots or there would only be one in the first place. So if we need two, why do we say it's OK to only have one when the other is on a break?

The idea of a second person seems logical. But what if that second person has the mental illness? Now you've left the only person capable of flying the plane alone with them.

True that, which sort of shoots more holes in the air marshall theory. If the air marshall goes rogue, he's already armed.
Alternatively, have a uniformed guard on every plane. Armed with a copy of The Herald.