A320 German-wings accident in Southern France

[raleyoz]

The flight deck access is PIN. All pilots and crew know the code. But say a terrorist grabs me, takes me to the door and says enter the code and it opens it straight away then the terrorist has access to the flight deck. (I would never give it away even if the outcome was not favourable to me).

The idea behind the code is to gain entry if the pilots are incapacitated. In my example, the pilots have 30 seconds to deny entry. If they see through the cameras an unauthorized person trying to gain entry, they are of course going to deny it.

This pilot had no reason to deny his captain entry.

Yes he did, that was the problem, he denied access to the captain cause he was a wackjob.
Removing the human factor from the entry access would have aided this situation, not saying it would have changed ,but a very real possibility it could have.
Your point about if a terrorist has a gun to your head and wants the code is the real situation, and your response is exactly what pilots are trained to do protect the passengers. If they did kill you their access is greatly reduced.
I would think anything that could be done to slow an attack is giving the balance of power back to crew and passengers

I still feel if you are allowed access then nothing should impede that access
Perhaps even FA could be excluded access unless there was a real issue

 

[Pushka]

I think the extra crew into the cabin is more about reassuring passengers rather than actually ensuring that all is safe. Just like the gels and explosives test. If you really wanted to cause mischief you just need to be observant.
anat01 - the Air NZ was trans to Oz - only a couple of pax in the premium section.

I recall in recent years a Singapore Airlines jet went down in similar circumstances.

 

[PLANT]

Wonder if a new job created for speed camera operators, people that watch grass grow and paint dry......."coughpit babysitter"?

 

[legroom]

In fact LH have such a blame free policy.
In this case the treating doctor thought the FO should not fly.So different to reporting that a patient has depression but otherwise OK.

I didn't know that LH has a blame-free policy.

That brings the Q why the treating doctor did not consider the implications from a public safety POV and initiated a contact with the airline.

Had the doctor formed that opinion 'you should not fly', it's incumbent upon him to see that relevant authorities are made aware. It was not done in this case apparently, so I'd like to think that the issues of patient confidentiality in Germany had actually stopped the doctor from taking the next step.

That's the reason for my earlier post (#208) where I suggested we should - as a society - have a debate about the pros & cons of overriding patient confidentiality once it potentially involves public safety.

And, one factor in favour of such policy should be a blame-free stance from the airlines (encouraging pilots to seek help without an implication of a career 'suicide').

 

[juddles]

..Had the doctor formed that opinion 'you should not fly', it's incumbent upon him to see that relevant authorities are made aware. It was not done in this case apparently, ......

But why would the doctor tell anyone? It appears from news reports that the pólice found doctor´s certificates in the guys home - this means he accepted them from the doctor. How would the doctor then know that the guy did not dutifully report in sick to his employer and not go to work?

 

[mannej]

I recall in recent years a Singapore Airlines jet went down in similar circumstances.

You are thinking of Silk Air, not SQ.

 

[dajop]

You are thinking of Silk Air, not SQ.

Yes Silkair flight 185, December 1997, although the cause of the crash wasn't without some controversy.

 

[mannej]

Yes Silkair flight 185, December 1997, although the cause of the crash wasn't without some controversy.

Same as EgyptAir 990. I don't buy that logic that someone won't commit suicide due to cultural norms though.

 

[drron]

I didn't know that LH has a blame-free policy.

That brings the Q why the treating doctor did not consider the implications from a public safety POV and initiated a contact with the airline.

Had the doctor formed that opinion 'you should not fly', it's incumbent upon him to see that relevant authorities are made aware. It was not done in this case apparently, so I'd like to think that the issues of patient confidentiality in Germany had actually stopped the doctor from taking the next step.

That's the reason for my earlier post (#208) where I suggested we should - as a society - have a debate about the pros & cons of overriding patient confidentiality once it potentially involves public safety.

And, one factor in favour of such policy should be a blame-free stance from the airlines (encouraging pilots to seek help without an implication of a career 'suicide').

Medical confidentiality in Germany is very strict.The doctor can not tell the employer directly.It is up to the patient.

But why would the doctor tell anyone? It appears from news reports that the pólice found doctor´s certificates in the guys home - this means he accepted them from the doctor. How would the doctor then know that the guy did not dutifully report in sick to his employer and not go to work?

However in other countries the authorities must be informed.A patient I had a while ago had a cardiac arrest.He was a school bus driver.Mandatory for the DOT to be informed and licence for bus driving is cancelled.
Surely when a doctor finds a pilot is incapacitated and should not be flying the licensing body should be told.
Even this though would not detect everyone who had similiar thoughts.People can be expert in hiding problems.

 

[777]

However in other countries the authorities must be informed.A patient I had a while ago had a cardiac arrest.He was a school bus driver.Mandatory for the DOT to be informed and licence for bus driving is cancelled.
Surely when a doctor finds a pilot is incapacitated and should not be flying the licensing body should be told.
Even this though would not detect everyone who had similiar thoughts.People can be expert in hiding problems.

Interesting that if current reports are true he also had vision problems. Those would, presumedly, have been picked up at his next medical so fear of that becoming known may have been a contributing factor?

 

[legroom]

Medical confidentiality in Germany is very strict.The doctor can not tell the employer directly.It is up to the patient..

Hence, the point of my posts !

That is, it's time for societies to debate the pros & cons of such confidentiality limitations.

And, what can be done to reassure patients that they won't be discriminated against - hence, the suggestion of a blame-free culture from airlines / regulators.

 

[Pushka]

You are thinking of Silk Air, not SQ.

Thats like saying Jetstar has no relationship with Qantas.

 

[Deleted member 29185]

I think this crime highlights something we all know and mostly try to ignore. That being that no matter what safeguards are devised and implemented, some dangers slip through the cracks. People will discuss this particular event for a long time as it highlighted many, many flaws in procedures, systems and equipment that are designed (at a cost) to safeguard us.......one of which is actually a success that was implemented to protect us (the impenetrable coughpit).

In the big picture, I believe self centred individuals can harm any of us at almost any time and that's something we live with. I despair at the cruel deaths of those pax (especially the school kids and infants that had much of their vibrant lives still to experience) and I do wonder at times why one persons right to medical privacy takes precedence over the safety of others (hundreds in this case) at times when there is clear conflict between the two and also why a persons illness should be allowed to risk others (let's face it an Ebola patient capable of mass deaths would not have been allowed aboard that flight, so why should a person with a long history of mental illness be allowed to pilot those same paxs).

Discussions involving all of our perceived rights versus others perceived rights are difficult issues and we will never be fully protected, nor will we all ever be 100% happy with the decisions taken. That's life. I look forward to some improved safety measures and I do genuinely hope it will be for the better but it's incumbent on all of us to be vigilant......flying, driving, walking, having a morning coffee.......there are no guarantees in life, except taxes and death and we must accept that and move on with making our lives as pleasant and as enjoyable as we can whilst at the same time learning from life's tragedies. I truly do not envy those involved with the accident investigation, clean up or decision making.

 

[TomVexille]

Thats like saying Jetstar has no relationship with Qantas.

Of course they do, but if JQ crashed would you say that QF crashed?

 

[dajop]

Thats like saying Jetstar has no relationship with Qantas.

But you said it was a SQ plane that crashed. So do we change the title of this thread to "A320 Lufthansa accident ...". Whilst there is a relationship, this is rarely (if at all) called to as a Lufthansa crash, although they have been referred to and heavily involved in managing the crisis. Likewise when there have been some safety near misses on JQ they don't get called QF near misses even though there is the clear ownership relationship.

That of course doesn't mean SQ hasn't had its issues with pilots (less deliberately) causing loss of life.

 

[Pushka]

Of course they do, but if JQ crashed would you say that QF crashed?

You, I reckon most people just might.

 

[TomVexille]

You, I reckon most people just might.

And they would be incorrect

 

[Pushka]

And they would be incorrect

Yes. But its all about perceptions and those guide people's decision making.

 

[coriander]

Touring a coughpit at these heights is a terrific experience.

Amen to that. I remember being privileged to be able to visit the coughpit on a QF 747 returning from Africa back in the early 80s, the captain taking notes on the best places to see the remaining steam - I'd been in Zim and SA chasing the last of operating steam trains. He also asked to see my builder's plates I'd somehow brought onboard in my hand luggage (~30kg worth)! Some hours later, about 45 minutes out of Sydney I guess, the CSM came back to me sitting in Y and surreptitiously asked "Dr C could you accompany me forward - oh we'll need your carry-on". Oh dear, was I in trouble, I thought. The CSM struggled with the heavy bag, popped it out of sight somewhere up in F and escorted me to the coughpit, where I was given a seat and able to watch the landing into Sydney. For someone who'd never seen that before, I was totally blown away - it was one of my most treasured memories. Made me the most loyal QF supporter - rusted on for life!

 

[TomVexille]

Yes. But its all about perceptions and those guide people's decision making.

Absolutely. Most people make emotional decisions over logical ones.