Abbott in Government

[drsmithy]

Here is why I don't think the overwhelming majority of arrivals are "genuine" asylum seekers.

Many of them pass through 6-7 safe havens on their way to Australia yet if they are rejected they choose to go back to the country that is supposedly persecuting them. Tells you something about their agenda.

So you're saying most arrivals are rejected and go back to their country of origin ?

Where's the evidence for this ?

 

[medhead]

Probably true so judging by the result it would be a very brave government / opposition to make / threaten to make cuts in those areas it would be very unpopular with the voters

So you support Abbott lying. He banged on about a budget emergency for 3 years. Middle and upper class welfare must be cut in a budget emergency. If abbott's government does not cut such welfare then they either a) lied about a budget emergency, or b) they are incapable of taking on the big issues and hence are unfit to govern.

 

[medhead]

Why doesn't Australia just pull out of the refugee convention?

Yep, there are a number of countries that have tried to isolate from the international community over the centuries. China, Japan, Burma, Iran, North Korea. It did not end nicely for them.

Here is why I don't think the overwhelming majority of arrivals are "genuine" asylum seekers.

Many of them pass through 6-7 safe havens on their way to Australia yet if they are rejected they choose to go back to the country that is supposedly persecuting them. Tells you something about their agenda.

Well the fact that the majority are granted asylum tells us that what you think isn't based in reality.

 

[Pukka]

So you support Abbott lying. He banged on about a budget emergency for 3 years. Middle and upper class welfare must be cut in a budget emergency. If abbott's government does not cut such welfare then they either a) lied about a budget emergency, or b) they are incapable of taking on the big issues and hence are unfit to govern.

There clearly is a budget emergency but all I'm saying is that he's going to look elsewhere for the majority of his savings. You don't bite the hand that feeds.....

Which is the very reason I voted for him.

 

[JohnK]

So you're saying most arrivals are rejected and go back to their country of origin ?

I did not say most arrivals. I said the ones that are rejected choose to go back to their country of origin not one of the safe havens they have crossed.

 

[medhead]

I did not say most arrivals. I said the ones that are rejected choose to go back to their country of origin not one of the safe havens they have crossed.

Try reading what you wrote. You said you think the majority are not real asylum seekers. If they are not real then they get rejected. According to you the rejected go back home. So you did in fact say the majority go home again.

 

[serfty]

...

Well the fact that the majority are granted asylum tells us that what you think isn't based in reality.

Tells me nothing - see post #810

 

[drsmithy]

I did not say most arrivals. I said the ones that are rejected choose to go back to their country of origin not one of the safe havens they have crossed.

So why are you conflating the actions of the minority rejected with "the overwhelming majority of arrivals" to assert the latter are not "genuine refugees" ?

 

[medhead]

There clearly is a budget emergency but all I'm saying is that he's going to look elsewhere for the majority of his savings. You don't bite the hand that feeds.....

Which is the very reason I voted for him.

Don't bite the hand that feeds? What a load of cough. Welfare benefits were withdrawn for the top 5% of incomes (~150k+). The 2.3 percent of taxpayers on 180k+ pay 24% of income tax (09/10). Income tax was estimated to be ~47% of the tax mix in 12/13. As a percent of GDP income tax was a couple of percent lower in 09/10 than the estimate for 12/13.

So the 2.3% of taxpayers who are probably have complete withdraw of welfare under the last government paid 24% of 47% = ~ 11% of total tax take. I think you have an overblown sense of importance if you think you keep the government tax coffers feed.

Then there is the so-called budget emergency. If there clearly is an emergency then you do everything to address the emergency, including taking welfare from people who do not need it. If there is an emergency you DO NOT borrow $9 billion to give to the RBA that has told you they don't need the money. You don't condone borrowing money to pay for travel to personal sporting events or to buy investment properties (followed by a boozy dinner with the chief whip).

The actions of this government in terms of spending says there is no budget emergency.

 

[drsmithy]

Tells me nothing - see post #810

An op-ed from Greg Sheridan tells you even less.

 

[drsmithy]

You don't bite the hand that feeds.....

Heh.

Thanks for the summary of Abbot's belief on how best to run a nation.

 

[medhead]

Tells me nothing - see post #810

That's exactly my point, JohnK's opinion tells us nothing.

Post #810 is on my ignore list. I have no reason to see it at all. But I gather it is about an opinion piece by a right wing hack. Even under Howard the majority had gain asylum. Was it 97% of the Tampa group. I am sure that along disproves whatever is written in #810.

 

[drron]

The real problem is that because of the numbers previously arriving by boat those whose need is greater,because they have not the funds to pay the people smugglers, face a much longer wait going through the normal channels-
Australia asylum seekers in dilemma - Asia-pacific - Al Jazeera English

And even some who do come by boat realise a lot of their co passengers really are not true refugees-
Australia's 'stop the boats' policy - Al Jazeera Blogs

 

[Pukka]

Don't bite the hand that feeds? What a load of cough. Welfare benefits were withdrawn for the top 5% of incomes (~150k+). The 2.3 percent of taxpayers on 180k+ pay 24% of income tax (09/10). Income tax was estimated to be ~47% of the tax mix in 12/13. As a percent of GDP income tax was a couple of percent lower in 09/10 than the estimate for 12/13.

So the 2.3% of taxpayers who are probably have complete withdraw of welfare under the last government paid 24% of 47% = ~ 11% of total tax take. I think you have an overblown sense of importance if you think you keep the government tax coffers feed.

Then there is the so-called budget emergency. If there clearly is an emergency then you do everything to address the emergency, including taking welfare from people who do not need it. If there is an emergency you DO NOT borrow $9 billion to give to the RBA that has told you they don't need the money. You don't condone borrowing money to pay for travel to personal sporting events or to buy investment properties (followed by a boozy dinner with the chief whip).

The actions of this government in terms of spending says there is no budget emergency.

Let me clarify as you are jumping to conclusions again; by bite the hand that feeds I mean don't alienate the people that voted you in. As you and Dr Smithy have pointed out endlessly Abbot Voters are the beneficiaries of what you class as "middle class welfare" so why would he take a hatchet to that surely he will look elsewhere.

I don't get any "welfare" unless you put legitimate tax deductions such as CGT reductions & negative gearing into that category. Which I don't.

 

[medhead]

Let me clarify as you are jumping to conclusions again; by bite the hand that feeds I mean don't alienate the people that voted you in. As you and Dr Smithy have pointed out endlessly Abbot Voters are the beneficiaries of what you class as "middle class welfare" so why would he take a hatchet to that surely he will look elsewhere.

I don't get any "welfare" unless you put legitimate tax deductions such as CGT reductions & negative gearing into that category. Which I don't.

Basically he is incapable if making the hard/unpopular decisions that are required to address a "budget emergency". That makes him unfit to govern. The fact that you voted for him, speaks volumes, as does your continuing support as he tries to disown everything he said as opposition leader.

As for the welfare question what your taking about is welfare to the top 10% of income earners. That certainly needs to stop. In any case, you comment betrays you, given it's support for buying votes. Ignoring the so-called budget emergency to buy votes is not the action of a competent government. It is the action of someone who will do anything to grab power. You have voted for an incompetent government.

He lied to the public for 3 years just to gain power. Now he has the power everything he said gets thrown out.

 

[BadgerBoi]

An op-ed from Greg Sheridan tells you even less.

Surely you're not suggesting that Sheridan, one of Tony Abbott's closest personal friends, would ever be anything but unbiased? He writes for The Australian; you can get fairer than one of Rupert's publications.

 

[QPProletarian]

The real problem is that because of the numbers previously arriving by boat those whose need is greater,because they have not the funds to pay the people smugglers, face a much longer wait going through the normal channels-
Australia asylum seekers in dilemma - Asia-pacific - Al Jazeera English

And even some who do come by boat realise a lot of their co passengers really are not true refugees-
Australia's 'stop the boats' policy - Al Jazeera Blogs

The abuse of this system and rorting of the benefits is something that concerns me. Personally, I liked the idea of TPVs which could allow deportation should they be charged with offences. Citizenship should be something that is earned, PRs don't get it straight away.

It raises the question, should Australia adopt a Visa Diversity option ala US Green Card? Would this avoid potential abuses of protection program by unskilled economic migrants?

 

[drsmithy]

The abuse of this system and rorting of the benefits is something that concerns me. Personally, I liked the idea of TPVs which could allow deportation should they be charged with offences. Citizenship should be something that is earned, PRs don't get it straight away.

Who, at any point, has suggested refugees should be automatically granted citizenship ?

It raises the question, should Australia adopt a Visa Diversity option ala US Green Card? Would this avoid potential abuses of protection program by unskilled economic migrants?

What is the deficit in the current system you want to address ?

Immigration from refugees is a small proportion. Immigration from refugees rorting the system is a vanishingly small proportion of that.

If you are concerned about high immigration, refugees are completely the wrong demographic to be focussing on.

 

[JohnK]

So why are you conflating the actions of the minority rejected with "the overwhelming majority of arrivals" to assert the latter are not "genuine refugees" ?

Two different sentences.

You believe the statistics thrown at you about "genuine" asylum seekers. I dont.

I did not make up the story about "genuine" asylum seekers wishing to return to the country persecuting them instead of the safe havens crossed. It wasnt that long ago.

Story is not true? Just like you choose which statistics to believe I choose which stories to believe.

And at the same time I can also have an opinion and say that I believe the overwhelming majority are not "genuine" asylum sedkers.

 

[777]

Just like you choose which statistics to believe I choose which stories to believe.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Not their own facts.