Abbott in Government

[BadgerBoi]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

My opinion is that Australia's security should be a bipartisan thing.

It is, as you'd realise if you'd bothered to listen to Tanya Plibersek on the ABC yesterday (instead of just trashing the interview out of hand).

You need to remember that the LNP is now the government, even though they keep forgetting that themselves and continue to act like an opposition. Therefore, it's their responsibility to fix this mess, not to compound it as they've been doing.

 

[drron]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

It is, as you'd realise if you'd bothered to listen to Tanya Plibersek on the ABC yesterday (instead of just trashing the interview out of hand).

You need to remember that the LNP is now the government, even though they keep forgetting that themselves and continue to act like an opposition. Therefore, it's their responsibility to fix this mess, not to compound it as they've been doing.

Not what I heard Tanya saying.Many of your boys and girls and your good self are destroying that bipartisan approach with your calls for an apology.

Now point to there TA or the Parliamentary Libs didn't follow bipartisan approaches to security.
Here is one from earlier this yeat that the libs kept away from-
Koreans caught spying

And it seems the Singaporeans helped us spy on Indonesia and Malaysia.should Singapore's PM apologise now too.
New Snowden leaks reveal US, Australia's Asian allies

That article also dobs in the Kiwis and Canadians as well.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Not what I heard Tanya saying.

Your inability to comprehend really is not the problem of anybody else.

Where are the calm and moderate voices from the government benches, ie Chrissie Pyne and Michaelia Cash, when Tony most needs them?

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Well if you don't believe our agencies did the right thing - then your mates in the ALP can apologise for authorizing it (although bad idea IMHO).

Not sure why you think anyone in the ALP is my "mate".

Obviously we should be keeping tabs on Indonesia. Possibly it went a bit too far.

However, the problem here is not the intelligence gathering, the problem is the poor way its exposure has been handled.

You can also blame the US for not securing their data.

You can also blame Mr Snowdon for being the treasonous weasel that he is and perhaps support a drone strike where needed.

Far more good will come for the majority from Snowdon's leaks than not.

However - of course angry Indonesia is not ideal, but this government didn't cause the problem, and has to keep it's options open for future revelations.

The Government has caused the problem. Note, for about the zillionth time, the problem is not the intelligence gathering itself.

But your partisan view of the world clearly prevents any chance of an objective analysis - and you wonder why you fail to persuade any others to your biased view of the world (to which you are perfectly entitled).

Can you explain why blaming Abbott for making a balls-up of this is "partisan" ?

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

It was not Tony Abbott who published the bugging story.
It was not Tony Abbott who authorised the bugging.
It was all the work of your boys and girls.

It was, however, Tony Abbot who made a complete balls-up of handling it.

And has Obama's apology been a 100% success-the Germans had a security delegation in Washington last week to try and get further facts.
The Snowden leaks have also shown thousands of phones in the UK,France,Spain and Mexico have been bugged and no apologies there.

Yes. And ?

Your statements are not fact just your opinion.Even those opinions being held by a majority of journalists does not make them facts.

Yes. And ?

My opinion is that Australia's security should be a bipartisan thing.Your boys and girls are trashing that to their shame.

So you think the Government of the day is implicitly incapable of making the wrong decision around national security and thus should not be subject to scrutiny or criticism on that topic ?

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Not sure why you think anyone in the ALP is my "mate".

Obviously we should be keeping tabs on Indonesia. Possibly it went a bit too far.

However, the problem here is not the intelligence gathering, the problem is the poor way its exposure has been handled.


Far more good will come for the majority from Snowdon's leaks than not.


The Government has caused the problem. Note, for about the zillionth time, the problem is not the intelligence gathering itself.


Can you explain why blaming Abbott for making a balls-up of this is "partisan" ?

Are you serious??!!??

Like seriously!!??

You the Indonesians were angry before Abbott had a chance to choose whichever course of action to handle it.

But my mistake - you clearly would have done a better job in handling it.

And if "it went too far" - it wasn't this present government that authorized it.

Personally - I trust the government of the day (Lib or ALP) to handle these crises. They have access to further intel that will no doubt be influencing their decision making.

And if you honestly think Snowdon is a good guy - I'll chip in for the 1-way ticket for you to join him permanently in that bastion of human rights and democracy that is Russia.

IMHO the guy should be dealt with under the harshest Treason laws available.

But apparently Treason is fashionable according to those on the Left.

 

[drron]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

He obviously is incapable of getting it.
Hatred of Tony Abbott runs deep and colours their perceptions of the world.
They also don't get it that it is only their opinion that TA has ballsed it up.It is so definitely not a fact.

 

[BadgerBoi]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

IMHO the guy should be dealt with under the harshest Treason laws available.

Perhaps, but whose call is that? What does it have to do with this thread, which is Abbott In Government? You need to stop your attempts at deflection; a valid defense of Abbott's handling of the situation with Indonesia would be a good start.

 

[777]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

He obviously is incapable of getting it.
Hatred of Tony Abbott runs deep and colours their perceptions of the world.
They also don't get it that it is only their opinion that TA has ballsed it up.It is so definitely not a fact.

I don't get why Abbott can't do what Obama did. Clearly it didn't begin under his watch either but when the Germans found out about it he picked his words carefully and said "we aren't monitoring the chancellors phone and we won't" ... Diplomatic speak for "oops, we got caught, well stop it now we realise you're p'ed off".

There are lots of ways to handle this better and at least one other country in same the boat with a major ally. I think it's fair to compare the approaches?

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

You the Indonesians were angry before Abbott had a chance to choose whichever course of action to handle it.

So obviously the best plan was to make them angrier, right ?

But my mistake - you clearly would have done a better job in handling it.

I doubt I would have handled it worse.

And if "it went too far" - it wasn't this present government that authorized it.

Yes. And ?

Personally - I trust the government of the day (Lib or ALP) to handle these crises. They have access to further intel that will no doubt be influencing their decision making.

I don't blindly trust anyone to do anything, *especially* people in power.

And if you honestly think Snowdon is a good guy - I'll chip in for the 1-way ticket for you to join him permanently in that bastion of human rights and democracy that is Russia.

IMHO the guy should be dealt with under the harshest Treason laws available.

Of course. You probably think whistleblower should go straight to gaol for life, as well. Anyone that dares question the status quo or expose malfeasance by people in power should be silenced immediately.

But apparently Treason is fashionable according to those on the Left.

Apparently overreach by Government is fashionable to those on the right. You might be cool with Government snooping through your life without warrants or any other sort of legal constraint, especially given the implicit trust you've already stated you have. I'm not.

Let me guess - "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" ?

 

[dfcatch]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

So obviously the best plan was to make them angrier, right ?


I doubt I would have handled it worse.


Yes. And ?


I don't blindly trust anyone to do anything, *especially* people in power.


Of course. You probably think whistleblower should go straight to gaol for life, as well. Anyone that dares question the status quo or expose malfeasance by people in power should be silenced immediately.


Apparently overreach by Government is fashionable to those on the right. You might be cool with Government snooping through your life without warrants or any other sort of legal constraint, especially given the implicit trust you've already stated you have. I'm not.

Let me guess - "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" ?

He's not a whistleblower - he's a traitor.

There's a big difference.

But then perhaps you could also justify that Bin Laden was a freedom-fighter not a terrorist right?

They're both subjective perceptions after all

Well if you think you can do a better job - run for office, win, and you'll get your chance.


777 - many feel that Obama actually handled it poorly.

Abbott apologizing may make the situation worse (not that it's good).

What happens next week when Snowdon's leaks show that we tapped the Prime Minister of Maylaysia (and we actually didn't)?? Do we apologise to Indonesia but not to Malaysia?

Thus confirming with Intel story is accurate and which isn't??

A very dangerous and slippery slope can be begun with an over simplistic attitude towards the issue.

It's much more complicated that any of us are qualified (or have security clearance) to address.

It's certainly not Abbott's fault (and you'll notice that I hesitated to even criticize the former government).

Armchair experts can "always do better" - but if you want to do better - run for office. I won't vote for you - but I'll support you in doing so.

 

[777]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Probably the wrong place to ask this but given this government has just had a near record drop in the polls for an incoming government I'm curious if anyone here is in the category of those who have switched sized since Election Day. If so, why?

Personally I'm not actually rabidly anti coalition but this government has lived up to the problem I complained about in opposition: they can't actually do everything they said they could do. They managed to score a lot points on labor by setting a standard that it will be almost impossible to meet because it wasn't based in reality. The most obvious example is backflip on debt and the budget but I think there's a lot of smaller ones lurking in the wings. I'm not convinced the Indonesia thing is all that big a deal except that Abbott's own rhetoric about the importance of Jakarta May comeback to bite him.

So, anyone here had second thoughts obviously quite a few have if today's polls are to be believed.

 

[drsmithy]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

He's not a whistleblower - he's a traitor.

There's a big difference.

Which is ?

But then perhaps you could also justify that Bin Laden was a freedom-fighter not a terrorist right?

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The American revolutionaries: freedom fighters or terrorists ?

Well if you think you can do a better job - run for office, win, and you'll get your chance.

I have zero interest in being a politician.

777 - many feel that Obama actually handled it poorly.

For example ?

 

[amaroo]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Probably the wrong place to ask this but given this government has just had a near record drop in the polls for an incoming government I'm curious if anyone here is in the category of those who have switched sized since Election Day. <snip>

Can't see many swingers in this group! Only the die hard rusted on core left

 

[Hvr]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Can't see many swingers in this group! Only the die hard rusted on core left

You're forgetting the hard Right wingers who'd rather be Right than right (correct).

 

[Pukka]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Probably the wrong place to ask this but given this government has just had a near record drop in the polls for an incoming government I'm curious if anyone here is in the category of those who have switched sized since Election Day. If so, why?

Personally I'm not actually rabidly anti coalition but this government has lived up to the problem I complained about in opposition: they can't actually do everything they said they could do. They managed to score a lot points on labor by setting a standard that it will be almost impossible to meet because it wasn't based in reality. The most obvious example is backflip on debt and the budget but I think there's a lot of smaller ones lurking in the wings. I'm not convinced the Indonesia thing is all that big a deal except that Abbott's own rhetoric about the importance of Jakarta May comeback to bite him.

So, anyone here had second thoughts obviously quite a few have if today's polls are to be believed.

I doubt that poll result would be repeated if there was an election in a couple of weeks. I don't believe that this government has done enough to cause such a turnaround in the polls in such a short time.

I suspect the next poll may well tell a different story although some people are certainly fickle.

Coalition still 1.30 with the bookmakers for the next election

 

[straitman]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Not sure if you've got the hang of this yet, dron. In particular the convention is to reply to posts directed at you - not other people. But moving forward ...

Moody,

There is no such convention and people are free to post/comment about about any post that appears.

 

[Moody]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Moody,

There is no such convention and people are free to post/comment about about any post that appears.

Yes quite. But I am still perplexed as to why dron would go and respond to specific questions I put directly to another poster, and ignore the reply I sent his/her way. I am always happy to back up my opinion when challenged on it - as I don't want to give the impression that I spout biassed rubbish with no basis in fact. Others can do as they like, but I still contend it is the convention to reply to a direct question or statement ...... or maybe he/she did! (Hmmm.....)

 

[drron]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Do you mean this interview :- Tanya Plibersek joins Insiders - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I thought Tanya was very considered and restrained in her language about the appalling way the government has mishandled this situation. The fact that you call it a "pathetic performance" with no actual rebuttal of anything she said exposes the complete vacuum of intelligence in your commentary.

Why don't you try playing the ball for a change, eh?

Just to be clear, did you ....

A. See the interview and thought TP got it completely wrong.
B. Didn't see the interview, but know from experience that TP is good at making conservatives look stupid. So you hate her.
C. Don't know who Tanya Plibersek is, but like agreeing with dron

It was a bill Shorten performance as when he said I don't know what she said but I fully support what the PM said.
TP knew that what TA has done is wrong but didn't know why he was wrong and couldn't say what he should do.
I even later read the transcript here-
Insiders - 24/11/2013: Tanya Plibersek joins Insiders - Insiders - ABC

Says a lot that you thought that was considered.
Neither she nor you know what has been going on in private by TA.And that is the way diplomacy must be tackled.Not caving in to biased public pressure.

Of course all of us also don't know what advice TA is getting from DSD and all other intelligence operatives.So saying that TA is speaking nonsense is just a reflection of the fact that those saying it just don't like TA.

Yes quite. But I am still perplexed as to why dron would go and respond to specific questions I put directly to another poster, and ignore the reply I sent his/her way. I am always happy to back up my opinion when challenged on it - as I don't want to give the impression that I spout biassed rubbish with no basis in fact. Others can do as they like, but I still contend it is the convention to reply to a direct question or statement ...... or maybe he/she did! (Hmmm.....)

Well there are the quotes Moody.Didn't actually ask me a question but as usual denigrated me for having an opinion different to yours.
Then in the questions to pukka you referred to me hence I felt justified answering your questions.
So I do not understand your last post.The subject of the post about me was the same subject as you asked Pukka.
The only thing I can conclude is that you don't think I deserve to have an opinion.

 

[Moody]

Re: Oz Federal Election 2013 - Discussion and Comments

Well there are the quotes Moody..

Yep - they are unedited quotes. From separate conversations between different posters (you, me, and Pukka makes three). Mixing them up can be confusing but I think you know that, don't you?

Didn't actually ask me a question but as usual denigrated me for having an opinion different to yours...

I was stunned by your chosen slur that inferred Tanya shreiks, and your very very biassed opinion that it was a "pathetic performance", and I was hoping that you would back those 2 assertions up with facts. Feel free not to do so. Again.

Then in the questions to pukka you referred to me hence I felt justified answering your questions.

So how exactly do you know :-

A. Whether Pukka actually saw the interview?
B. What Pukka's previously held opinion of Tanya was?
C. Whether Pukka likes you?

Unless, of course, you ARE Pukka. In that case you are entitled to reply.... if not then I think you are being presumptious.

So I do not understand your last post.The subject of the post about me was the same subject as you asked Pukka.
The only thing I can conclude is that you don't think I deserve to have an opinion.

No - I think that you chose the wrong post to hit "Reply With Quote" on, but my comment to that effect should be seen as a throw-away line. The fact that it has been made the main subject leads me to the opinion that you are losing the argument and are clutching at unrelated straws. N'est-ce pas?