AFR's Joe Aston goes BAM!

[levelnine]

Someone on here has written a whole PhD thesis on this and other explanations of corrupt behaviour (as defined by NSW ICAC) by public officials and suppliers to government, and she agrees with you!

Actual knowledge of the issue (eg the difference between criminal conduct and regulatory capture; the difference between quid pro quo & clientelistic corruption) is strictly forbidden in this thread.

 

[Quickstatus]

The value of ‘low value’ is often $20 or $50, and many have a value of $0.

The nurses generally get chocolates, and they get them typically when Cadbury's favourites are at half price at Woolies.

Ive never seen fresh flowers given to nurses - just the used ones that the patients get and then leave behind when they go home.

The most cringeworthy "gift" to healthcare workers Ive ever saw were the "Thank You Healthcare workers" signs during Rona

 

[MARTINE]

Someone on here has written a whole PhD thesis on this and other explanations of corrupt behaviour (as defined by NSW ICAC) by public officials and suppliers to government, and she agrees with you!

CLEO is back!

 

[offshore171]

Peter Van Onselen asks:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1851075748209312114

“Would anyone be ok about a Treasurer calling up a bank CEO and asking for a lower interest rate on their home loan as a personal favour?”

Fair comparison.

 

[MARTINE]

Mostly, but not the alleged solicitation by Albo of upgrades for his family on personal flights made direct to the CEO.

And I’m sorry, the argument that 'everyone' does it or it’s done by other Airlines doesn’t excuse what’s been discussed in this thread.

Agree
In fact its not even consistent behavior within their own guidelines in the public service itself … at a morning meeting with some non-EL level type (tender or presentation) precludes you bringing a coffee or cupcake due to perceptions of ‘undue influence.’
Meanwhile meetings later in the day with the decision-makers take place at lovely ACT restaurants
….and then much later you enter CLUtopia …

I think equating a nurse getting a box of close to use by date $2 chocolates is rather a false equivalence

 

[33kft]

“Would anyone be ok about a Treasurer calling up a bank CEO and asking for a lower interest rate on their home loan as a personal favour?”

Fair comparison.

I don't disagree with the point being made but I would argue this isn't really a good comparison. The concept of interest rates (enduring for as long as 30 years, not something that is associated with any type of frequent activity) vs flight upgrades (tied to capacity, point in time, often proactively offered to frequent flyers) is not really a very good analogy.

The only parts that seem relevant for me are the senior ministerial portfolio and the fact they are leaning on a large institution within their portfolio for a benefit.

 

[CaptJCool]

So Qantas Stsff Tavel at 90% Orf rates and bankers concessional interest rates are okay ?
What happens if the pollie is the partner / parent / friend of said employee ?

 

[antycbr]

So Qantas Stsff Tavel at 90% Orf rates and bankers concessional interest rates are okay ?
What happens if the pollie is the partner / parent / friend of said employee ?

If the Minister for Transport or the shadow minister I would suggest this is not a great idea.

However staff travel is a benefit published (internally) and not corrupt conduct as it has defined rules of eligibility, and there’s no possibility of undue influence arising by utilising a published benefit.

 

[offshore171]

I don't disagree with the point being made but I would argue this isn't really a good comparison. The concept of interest rates (enduring for as long as 30 years, not something that is associated with any type of frequent activity)

I think you're splitting hairs here. Banks already do offer interest rate discounts for loyalty or high value customers (eg: private bank clients) based on qualifying criteria. That qualifying criteria does not include being a government minister and putting the hard word on the CEO.

vs flight upgrades (tied to capacity, point in time, often proactively offered to frequent flyers) is not really a very good analogy.

If the allegations are accurate, some of these upgrades were solicited well in advance, when those seats could otherwise have been sold to customers.

The only parts that seem relevant for me are the senior ministerial portfolio and the fact they are leaning on a large institution within their portfolio for a benefit.

I agree that's the worst part. Joyce should have reported the approach to his own board and the authorities. The problem at the time was that the board were spellbound with Joyce and showed little interest in governance matters.

It does feel like the average paying customer is well down Qantas's list of priorities.

 

[CaptJCool]

I think you're splitting hairs here. Banks already do offer interest rate discounts for loyalty or high value customers (eg: private bank clients) based on qualifying criteria. That qualifying criteria does not include being a government minister and putting the hard word on the CEO.



If the allegations are accurate, some of these upgrades were solicited well in advance, when those seats could otherwise have been sold to customers.



I agree that's the worst part. Joyce should have reported the approach to his own board and the authorities. The problem at the time was that the board were spellbound with Joyce and showed little interest in governance matters.

It does feel like the average paying customer is well down Qantas's list of priorities.

The worst part would be taking Wantas for a ride
Accepting their solicited generosity or unsolicited gifts
AND
then treating them harshly
Like Say Approving endless slots for international competitors or restricting prime time slots at Sydney airport
… just sayin’

 

[Seat0B]

CLEO is back!

She is! Maybe I should try to talk myself into a job with Qantas

 

[Quickstatus]

What happens if the pollie is the partner / parent / friend of said employee ?

No issue for the staff member, but pollie should refrain from getting staff travel tickets.
I also doubt very much that Pollie would want to fly standby....

We can look at all the potential permutations of non-arms length benefits.
It is simply this: Dont accept benefits/gifts if there is any hint that it may could be construed negatively.
I occasionally am given gifts as part of work. I keep the card, but always politely say I am unable to receive the gift but out of respect to the giver, I tell them I'm give the gift to the Hospital volunteers.

 

[Seat0B]

So Qantas Stsff Tavel at 90% Orf rates and bankers concessional interest rates are okay ?

In terms of being corrupt behaviour or not, these are ok. It’s because they are offered openly to everyone in a class of people eg bank employees with more than 12 months service, or Qantas employees and their families. The benefits are not given as a personal whim or fiefdom or a secretive favour when requested by someone with a conflict of interest.

Are people outside these groups maybe a bit jealous of the benefits? Probably, but they are not corrupt in themselves.

Edit to add: And pollie family should not participate if it’s a conflict of interest or even a perceived one.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

For those who read the book, is it worth a read?

 

[Happy Dude]

Informative article on the subject and some relevant historical examples on ABC today. Should help many people who can't or refuse to see the forest for the trees.

The registers of interest reveal two types of politicians. One of them explains Albanese's rage over Qantas

It is possible to understand and empathise with the PM's indignation over the Qantas flights controversy while simultaneously disagreeing with his diagnosis that it's a non-story.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Quickstatus]

For those who read the book, is it worth a read?

Maybe a list of interested readers can be drawn up and published here and the Book Owner/reader sends to the next person in list when finished??.
(With apologies to Joe Ashton)

 

[moa999]

Joyce should have reported the approach to his own board and the authorities.

But that's where the actual facts come into it.

Very different imho if Albo proactively requested something,

versus say a future holiday came up in conversation and Joyce asked a staffer to look into it and they discovered that Albo was in economy/ business or had an upgrade on waitlist, and used his powers to upgrade.

 

[Kerrodt]

But that’s the whole point. Why are you holding the CEO of a company to a higher standard than a member of parliament? Particularly when there could be many CEOs of foreign companies doing the same thing?

The only way this works is to make the federal official responsible. If the CEOs are breaking the law that official reports them and it’s dealt with.

I can tell you this is how it works with foreign intelligence reporting.

Where have I said that I am holding the CEO of a company (in this case QF) to a higher standard than a member of parliament?

 

[Kerrodt]

They’re not necessarily improper from QF’s side. Corporations look after their biggest customers, and the federal government is the largest customer of QF’s.

The government member in this specific case was the Transport Minister so had direct regulatory oversight over the airline. It is more than a customer/supplier relationship.

It's a bit like the CEO of CBA ringing up the head of APRA and saying "Mate, next time you need a home loan give me a call and I'll arrange for all the fees to be waived and we will give you a 50% discount on the interest rate for the life of the loan. Oh, and I notice that your son is in heavy arrears on his home loan - don't worry, I'll wipe them off the system so you don't have to worry about them."

 

[RooFlyer]

For those who read the book, is it worth a read?

Reading it now. Some early comments in post #518 & #536. As I mentioned, it is very much about Qantas and Alan Joyce; the politicians freebies thing is only delved into well into the book.