AFR's Joe Aston goes BAM!

[justinbrett]

Where have I said that I am holding the CEO of a company (in this case QF) to a higher standard than a member of parliament?

Because you said Joyce was the greater villain. Not Albo who was the one that requested the upgrade.

The government member in this specific case was the Transport Minister so had direct regulatory oversight over the airline. It is more than a customer/supplier relationship.

It's a bit like the CEO of CBA ringing up the head of APRA and saying "Mate, next time you need a home loan give me a call and I'll arrange for all the fees to be waived and we will give you a 50% discount on the interest rate for the life of the loan. Oh, and I notice that your son is in heavy arrears on his home loan - don't worry, I'll wipe them off the system so you don't have to worry about them."

Allegedly it was Albo who called up asking for an upgrade. That was improper (and likely breached ministerial code of conduct).

Joyce upgrading MPs including the PM without prompt is no different to upgrading CEOs of other large QF customers. There’s nothing illegal about it and the onus is on the MPs to refuse if it’s “improper”. Given that anybody with CL access is likely to get upgraded anyway, it’s not the story here. It’s the fact Albo requested it. You analogy isn’t apt because it wasn’t instigated by QF.

 

[Kerrodt]

This thread has derailed miserably from its original intent and what its current intent should be, which is JA's writing and analysis on QF, Joyce, the Board of QF in the AFR (historically) and his book (current).

Anything else is just irrelevant and unnecessary jibber jabber.

One observation though - the knowledge of anti-bribery and corruption principles of good governance in government, corporate life etc. is lacking in some here. Not to mention lacking in the actions of Albo and Joyce as disclosed in the JA book itself.

 

[Kerrodt]

Because you said Joyce was the greater villain. Not Albo who was the one that requested the upgrade.

Me saying that Joyce was the greater villain is not the same as saying I hold either to a higher standard compared to the other. I would actually hold both of them to the same highest standard and both of them failed miserably.

Allegedly it was Albo who called up asking for an upgrade. That was improper (and likely breached ministerial code of conduct).

I'd agree with this. In my view, Albo should have been smart enough to know that this should not be even contemplated. In a corporate setting this should be strictly prohibited.

Joyce upgrading MPs including the PM without prompt is no different to upgrading CEOs of other large QF customers. There’s nothing illegal about it and the onus is on the MPs to refuse if it’s “improper”. Given that anybody with CL access is likely to get upgraded anyway, it’s not the story here. It’s the fact Albo requested it. You analogy isn’t apt because it wasn’t instigated by QF.

I don't agree with this at all, but I'm not going to pursue it. It is a much broader discussion than the intent of this thread and making broad and hypothetical statements on the topic of anti-bribery and corruption principles and practices like this are just creating muddy water.

 

[TomVexille]

One of the ways that may help politicians to be beyond reproach is to actually pay them very well. Running the country or representing an electorate should come with much higher remuneration and legislation that prohibits gifts.

And Australian politicians are some of the highest paid in the world...

 

[justinbrett]

Me saying that Joyce was the greater villain is not the same as saying I hold either to a higher standard compared to the other. I would actually hold both of them to the same highest standard and both of them failed miserably.

Except that the PM (allegedly) broke his code of conduct.

Joyce gave his largest customer a free upgrade. Not illegal.

I have no problems with you saying they are both at fault but I do have a massive problem with you putting the (greater) blame on Joyce.

 

[Kerrodt]

Except that the PM (allegedly) broke his code of conduct.

Joyce gave his largest customer a free upgrade. Not illegal.

I have no problems with you saying they are both at fault but I do have a massive problem with you putting the (greater) blame on Joyce.

The Qantas Group Code of Conduct and Ethics sets out the responsibility of all staff in relation to their conduct.

I refer you to s3.11 and 3.15, which states (in part):

Anti-Bribery and Corruption Policy
3.11 Employees must not:

1. offer, give or receive bribes, in any form, to or from any person including government officials (of any country), customers or suppliers. Any conduct that creates the perception of bribery should also be avoided.
   
   Bribes are anything of value given, offered, promised, accepted or authorised (either directly or indirectly) to influence a person’s actions or decisions to gain or retain a business advantage. This does not include situations where a person is under duress (provided it has been reported to Qantas Legal before, or as soon as possible following, the incident).
   
   Anything of value is defined widely and includes (but is not limited to) cash, commissions, gifts, meals, entertainment, business opportunities, flights, upgrades, lounge access and offers of employment. There is no monetary threshold; any amount could be construed as a bribe.
   
   Government officials include public servants, employees of enterprises where the government has more than a 50% stake, Members of Parliament, Judges or Magistrates and individuals who are contracted service providers for a government contract;

Gifts, Entertainment and Hospitality (GEH) Policy

3.17 The Qantas Group requires the exercise of a high degree of caution in relation to the giving and receiving of GEH to/from government officials. On that basis, Employees must:

1. never offer, give or receive cash to/from a government official;
2. contact Qantas Legal for approval before providing or receiving any GEH to/from a government official; and
3. record all GEH provided to or received from a government official (once approved by Qantas Legal) on the GEH Register.

There's a lot more in the document so while what Joyce has done may not be illegal, it may have breached the QF code of conduct and ethics - which would have consequences.

I wonder what is reported in the GEH Register relevant to all of this? My guess is nothing.

 

[TheRealTMA]

The Qantas Group Code of Conduct and Ethics sets out the responsibility of all staff in relation to their conduct.

I refer you to s3.11 and 3.15, which states (in part):

Anti-Bribery and Corruption Policy
3.11 Employees must not:

1. offer, give or receive bribes, in any form, to or from any person including government officials (of any country), customers or suppliers. Any conduct that creates the perception of bribery should also be avoided.
   
   Bribes are anything of value given, offered, promised, accepted or authorised (either directly or indirectly) to influence a person’s actions or decisions to gain or retain a business advantage. This does not include situations where a person is under duress (provided it has been reported to Qantas Legal before, or as soon as possible following, the incident).
   
   Anything of value is defined widely and includes (but is not limited to) cash, commissions, gifts, meals, entertainment, business opportunities, flights, upgrades, lounge access and offers of employment. There is no monetary threshold; any amount could be construed as a bribe.
   
   Government officials include public servants, employees of enterprises where the government has more than a 50% stake, Members of Parliament, Judges or Magistrates and individuals who are contracted service providers for a government contract;

Gifts, Entertainment and Hospitality (GEH) Policy

3.17 The Qantas Group requires the exercise of a high degree of caution in relation to the giving and receiving of GEH to/from government officials. On that basis, Employees must:

1. never offer, give or receive cash to/from a government official;
2. contact Qantas Legal for approval before providing or receiving any GEH to/from a government official; and
3. record all GEH provided to or received from a government official (once approved by Qantas Legal) on the GEH Register.

There's a lot more in the document so while what Joyce has done may not be illegal, it may have breached the QF code of conduct and ethics - which would have consequences.

I wonder what is reported in the GEH Register relevant to all of this? My guess is nothing.

So! Never ever give chocolates to cabin crew! They must report this as a bribe!

 

[offshore171]

Except that the PM (allegedly) broke his code of conduct.

Joyce gave his largest customer a free upgrade. Not illegal.

"customer"?

Joyce allegedly gave the public official in charge of regulating his business, 22 solicited upgrades.

(again I would add the caveat: if the allegations are accurate)

In my line of work, we are required to report any such requests from public officials (both domestic and foreign) to our anti corruption / anti bribery unit. And of course decline the request.

 

[Quickstatus]

Joyce gave his largest customer a free upgrade. Not illegal.

It is the job of a CEO to cultivate commercial network opportunities and advocate for his/her company, including lobbying Ministers
However, some might say that some of the "inducements" might come close to the level of a bribe which implies some element of unethical behavior. Illegal? - I dont know

 

[Kerrodt]

So! Never ever give chocolates to cabin crew! They must report this as a bribe!

Read the entire document before you make nonsense comments like this.

 

[justinbrett]

The Qantas Group Code of Conduct and Ethics sets out the responsibility of all staff in relation to their conduct.

I refer you to s3.11 and 3.15, which states (in part):

Anti-Bribery and Corruption Policy
3.11 Employees must not:

1. offer, give or receive bribes, in any form, to or from any person including government officials (of any country), customers or suppliers. Any conduct that creates the perception of bribery should also be avoided.
   
   Bribes are anything of value given, offered, promised, accepted or authorised (either directly or indirectly) to influence a person’s actions or decisions to gain or retain a business advantage. This does not include situations where a person is under duress (provided it has been reported to Qantas Legal before, or as soon as possible following, the incident).
   
   Anything of value is defined widely and includes (but is not limited to) cash, commissions, gifts, meals, entertainment, business opportunities, flights, upgrades, lounge access and offers of employment. There is no monetary threshold; any amount could be construed as a bribe.
   
   Government officials include public servants, employees of enterprises where the government has more than a 50% stake, Members of Parliament, Judges or Magistrates and individuals who are contracted service providers for a government contract;

Gifts, Entertainment and Hospitality (GEH) Policy

3.17 The Qantas Group requires the exercise of a high degree of caution in relation to the giving and receiving of GEH to/from government officials. On that basis, Employees must:

1. never offer, give or receive cash to/from a government official;
2. contact Qantas Legal for approval before providing or receiving any GEH to/from a government official; and
3. record all GEH provided to or received from a government official (once approved by Qantas Legal) on the GEH Register.

There's a lot more in the document so while what Joyce has done may not be illegal, it may have breached the QF code of conduct and ethics - which would have consequences.

I wonder what is reported in the GEH Register relevant to all of this? My guess is nothing.

According to that QF shouldn’t give anybody an upgrade, ever. It clearly does. And has done long before Joyce. As does other airlines.

Unless you read that as it has to be classed as a bribe, in which case you have to prove intent. That’s hard to do.

"customer"?

Joyce allegedly gave the public official in charge of regulating his business, 22 solicited upgrades.

(again I would add the caveat: if the allegations are accurate)

In my line of work, we are required to report any such requests from public officials (both domestic and foreign) to our anti corruption / anti bribery unit. And of course decline the request.

It is both. The federal government is the largest customer of QF for passenger services. In fact the Department of Defence was the largest customer in its own right back when it had an individual contract (before the WoAG contract was created)

 

[Quickstatus]

And Australian politicians are some of the highest paid in the world

Are you including the monetary value of all the Freebies?

 

[TheRealTMA]

Read the entire document before you make nonsense comments like this.

first line "offer, give or receive bribes, in any form, to or from any person..."

Chocolates to cabin crew are definately a bribe to solicit or hope for better service than those aroujnd you no matter what some say. Should never be done.

 

[Quickstatus]

Chocolates to cabin crew are definately a bribe to solicit or hope for better service than those aroujnd you no matter what some say.

I suppose if you gave the choccies on disembarkation it would be OK?

But all this pales into insignificance with what went on.

 

[TheRealTMA]

But all this pales into insignificance with what went on.

The hypocrisy of politicians is aways on show. But I really have no issues with CL’ers and politicians and others getting upgrades. Many are LTP anyway so would qualify for upgrades on most flights.

Singling out Albo's upgrades are such a small comment in Aston's book to create controversy to sell the book promoted by the usual bunch of News Cort apparatchiks. Much of this thread is just an excuse for political attacks on Albo. Much more important political topics for consideration INHO, which I am not allowed to mention here.

 

[TomVexille]

Are you including the monetary value of all the Freebies?

Nope, add that and all the lifetime perks on top

 

[Quickstatus]

Much more important political topics for consideration INHO, which I am not allowed to mention here.

It is the theatre of politics. Remember Dutton and the nanny?.

 

[RooFlyer]

Chocolates to cabin crew are definately a bribe to solicit or hope for better service than those aroujnd you no matter what some say. Should never be done.

If given on exit from the plane, as a genuine 'thank-you', I think would be OK.

Singling out Albo's upgrades are such a small comment in Aston's book to create controversy to sell the book promoted by the usual bunch of News Cort apparatchiks. Much of this thread is just an excuse for political attacks on Albo. Much more important political topics for consideration INHO, which I am not allowed to mention here.

Its really a small part of Aston's book and he doesn't mention it until quite late. But yes, picked up by an eager media.

Potential readers will be happy to know that Aston takes swipes at pollies of all colours - especially then deputy PM McCormack and former colleague Anderson & Rex!

 

[Mattg]

first line "offer, give or receive bribes, in any form, to or from any person..."

Chocolates to cabin crew are definately a bribe to solicit or hope for better service than those aroujnd you no matter what some say. Should never be done.

I think the difference here is that anybody could choose to gift chocolates to cabin crew as a kind gesture, if they want to. Not everyone can get access to upgrades, Chairman's Lounge, etc. due to being a Member of Parliament.

 

[Happy Dude]

Unless you read that as it has to be classed as a bribe, in which case you have to prove intent. That’s hard to do.

Not that hard. From the Annabel Crabb article on the ABC website:

Mr Palmer was dis-invited from the Chairman's Lounge 10 years ago when he used his Senate vote to block a bill lifting Qantas's foreign ownership restrictions.

Seems Qantas have a history of rewarding compliant politicians and punishing those that aren't. Pretty black and white really and not surprising that QF so often seem to get pollies on their side. Not so lucky in the courts though.