Anybody with any experience getting wiped points reinstated?

[basso]

I suspect QF know that they would lose any such case were it to be litigated, but the number of people willing to do so when the legal cost may very easily exceed the value of the points is also very small that it works in practice. Not everyone has a lawyer in the family willing to spend 3 or 4 hours hassling QF for gratis.

Until someone litigates, we will never know. But, one thing this thread tells me, is that no-one here has actually read the terms and conditions of the program. If they had, they would know that Qantas is sending the warning in the manner they said they would:

(c) Members who have opted to receive communications online and via email, will receive a notification within their monthly electronic newsletter.

 

[badseed]

Until someone litigates, we will never know. But, one thing this thread tells me, is that no-one here has actually read the terms and conditions of the program. If they had, they would know that Qantas is sending the warning in the manner they said they would:

Terms and conditions mean little, especially in consumer contracts, and doubly so where the entity with all of the power in a situation (i.e. QF) imposes an unreasonable condition upon the consumer (e.g. 'you can only receive notification buried in an email').

The real question is what would a reasonable QFF member (i.e. an extremely broad class of individual) expect as notification that they were about to suffer an imminent financial loss? And would the subject line be likely to mislead and/or deceive the consumer into taking no action to maintain their points balance.

It won't be litigated as QF will likely back down every time someone lawyers up, or faces a social media barrage etc. It's really just there as a deterrent to taking action (similar to Terms and Conditions signs upon entry to paid car parking facilities).

 

[Dr Ralph]

Terms and conditions mean little, especially in consumer contracts, and doubly so where the entity with all of the power in a situation (i.e. QF) imposes an unreasonable condition upon the consumer (e.g. 'you can only receive notification buried in an email').

Whilst a power imbalance may be relevant, this statement just isn't true and I would caution against such advice.

I'm always concerned about the veracity of the legal advice I receive when someone uses the phrase 'terms and conditions' as it indicates their lack of understanding of contract law or even consumer protection law.

Just for those interested: Every contract is made up of terms. Every term can be classified in a number of ways including as a condition, warranty or an innominate term. But there are no terms and conditions of a contract. That is at best a tautology.

 

[badseed]

Whilst a power imbalance may be relevant, this statement just isn't true and I would caution against such advice.

I'm always concerned about the veracity of the legal advice I receive when someone uses the phrase 'terms and conditions' as it indicates their lack of understanding of contract law or even consumer protection law.

Just for those interested: Every contract is made up of terms. Every term can be classified in a number of ways including as a condition, warranty or an innominate term. But there are no terms and conditions of a contract. That is at best a tautology.

Ha! It was hardly 'advice' - more a deliberately generalised statement. But as you'll no-doubt be aware, just because a 'term' is included in or referred to in a contract, that doesn't necessarily mean it's reasonable or even ultimately enforceable.

From experience dealing with similar matters is that it immediately speaks volumes if the more powerful entity is reticent or unenthusiastic about enforcing their own 'terms' when push comes to shove.

Of course, everyone should do their best to comply with the QFF conditions, including the 18-month points expiry, in good faith. However surely we can agree that a separate email (at minimum) with a clear subject link e.g. 'Your Qantas Frequent Flyer points will expire in XX days - Take action now', would help everyone out and avoid many of these instances. Simpler and fairer ;-)

When my old QP membership was close to expiry they seemed quite able to send out a physical letter, as well as a dedicated email.

 

[oz_mark]

From experience dealing with similar matters is that it immediately speaks volumes if the more powerful entity is reticent or unenthusiastic about enforcing their own 'terms' when push comes to shove.

or they have a notion of 'picking their fights' or trying to work with a customer to find a solution.

 

[Mattg]

Of course, everyone should do their best to comply with the QFF conditions, including the 18-month points expiry, in good faith. However surely we can agree that a separate email (at minimum) with a clear subject link e.g. 'Your Qantas Frequent Flyer points will expire in XX days - Take action now', would help everyone out and avoid many of these instances. Simpler and fairer ;-)

When my old QP membership was close to expiry they seemed quite able to send out a physical letter, as well as a dedicated email.

In a QF presentation I found from 2012, Qantas seems to be quite proud of the fact that "only" 10% of points expired and went unused. They make the point that there needs to be a balance between short term revenue and long term customer engagement/loyalty.




Perhaps QF's accountants have since decided that they would like to increase the amount of points that expire? After all, points breakage is extremely profitable for any airline.

(In case anyone is interested, here's a link to that presentation: http://www.actuaries.asn.au/Library/Events/FSF/2012/AnalyticsOfLoyalty3BChandlerTubman.pdf)

 

[cove]

Often the best "new customer" is a lapsed one. I am pleased to see what has been offered.

 

[OzEire]

The notification issue is a useful warning, thanks to the OP for raising this.

By comparison, I had a paltry amount go Hyatt points expire recently (after running big balances when based in the US). By contrast to QF, Hyatt sent emails monthly for 5 months as then weekly in the last month. Warnings were clearly and sternly worded in both subject and email text. That is what I would expect from any loyalty program- it is an automated email system, fairly easy to configure and negligible ongoing cost.

 

[Princess Fiona]

The notification issue is a useful warning, thanks to the OP for raising this.

By comparison, I had a paltry amount go Hyatt points expire recently (after running big balances when based in the US). By contrast to QF, Hyatt sent emails monthly for 5 months as then weekly in the last month. Warnings were clearly and sternly worded in both subject and email text. That is what I would expect from any loyalty program- it is an automated email system, fairly easy to configure and negligible ongoing cost.

AA does this too. I expect that's more to do with the legal framework in the US than any corporate benevolence on their part.

 

[k_sheep]

Good outcome Homer. I agree the notification is farcical, but at least they're giving a pretty easy way of getting it back.

 

[lastrow]

Just to clarify my points position:
I gain points each month by booking things up on either my ANZ Visa or ANZ American Express (more points per dollar). It is a couple of years since either redeemed points for a flight or earned points by flying. I get a monthly email giving me my points balance and enticing me with offers (which I don't take up). Is the above sufficient to protect my points from expiring?

 

[por930]

Just to clarify my points position:
I gain points each month by booking things up on either my ANZ Visa or ANZ American Express (more points per dollar). It is a couple of years since either redeemed points for a flight or earned points by flying. I get a monthly email giving me my points balance and enticing me with offers (which I don't take up). Is the above sufficient to protect my points from expiring?

Yes, you are covered because your account is active as it changes each month, or at regular intervals.

 

[burmans]

Yes, you are covered because your account is active as it changes each month, or at regular intervals.

Any earn is a good earn!

 

[nutwood]

I got caught. Transferred 50,000 points to the other half for a trip she was planning. Trip didn't happen, points vanished as our day to day activity is on my card. Our mistake for not thinking through the bit that says "points expire....except for points transfer"

 

[Deathifier]

Just reporting back. I'm impressed with the way QF has handled this. Red Roo replied this morning to say they had forwarded my request to senior management who would contact me directly. But in the meantime I had also called the QF service centre this morning before receiving Red Roo's reply.

The service centre agent said that as I had called soon after the deduction and as a gesture of goodwill they would offer me the QF Goodwill Points Challenge as per a previous forum post. I need to earn 2,500 points from two different sources within six months and they will reinstate the points. The agent nominated flights/hotels as one source and a credit card as another source. So I just had my Centurion RM transfer 2,000 points to QF and I'm about to book a flight, to attend a funeral..., and I'll try to use QF for that.

So that's a big thumbs up from Homer to QF!!!

This is similar to my experience.

I had ~80k points expire unexpectedly,
I was expecting a specific e-mail alert as I had received one the previous time they were about to expire.
Instead I found out the month after expiry when I noticed the big number in the monthly promotional newsletter was suddenly zero.

Reading through the T&C's I did see that their notification is now via that same newsletter.
Sadly the expiry alert is clearly not very prominent because I missed it despite skimming through each newsletter.

I called Qantas, informed them of the situation, and they offered me the same points challenge specifically because I'd called them shortly (i.e. about 2 weeks) after expiry.

I did mention that the expiry notification was extremely poor and the service staff just ignored the comment each time I brought it up.

The staff were also unconcerned that I actually had travel booked on Qantas a month later, as well as likely travel coming up later in the year (I'd be paying cash, not redeeming points), for which I usually use Qantas due to the combo of value for money, loyalty program, service/support quality, and flexibility (e.g. flight frequency) - the response to mentioning this was that the flights would partially meet the points challenge requirements.

So from my interaction it seems like if you call up shortly after expiry and politely explain the situation there is a reasonably good chance of being offered the challenge.
The service staff, whilst polite and professional, don't seem interested in considering anything else.

I can see how Qantas refusing to return points could easily result in severe damage to that particular customer relationship, and likely others (e.g. family, friends, etc.) too.
This is why I find it strange that there's no explicit warning e-mail, esp. since it can also be used as a promotional opportunity (e.g. redeem for part of a trip, pay for the rest) and, these days, is basically free for the company to send.

- Deathifier

 

[Kangol]

Whilst a power imbalance may be relevant, this statement just isn't true and I would caution against such advice.

I'm always concerned about the veracity of the legal advice I receive when someone uses the phrase 'terms and conditions' as it indicates their lack of understanding of contract law or even consumer protection law.

Just for those interested: Every contract is made up of terms. Every term can be classified in a number of ways including as a condition, warranty or an innominate term. But there are no terms and conditions of a contract. That is at best a tautology.

What does the phrase "terms and conditions" refer to, if not a contract? An "agreement"?
ie. the QFF program has "membership terms and conditions" which is not part of a contract between two parties but part of a ______ ?

 

[froggerADL]

I got caught. Transferred 50,000 points to the other half for a trip she was planning. Trip didn't happen, points vanished as our day to day activity is on my card. Our mistake for not thinking through the bit that says "points expire....except for points transfer"

For future reference, you can just book your partners flights from your account. You don't need to transfer the points to her account.

 

[Muriel]

I lost some points a few years ago but there are a couple of things you can do to keep your account active. If you have a Woolworths reward card, you can opt to convert each $10 balance to Qantas points. Log into your woolies a/c and follow the prompts. You can also register with Red Planet surveys to review different things. You will earn Qantas points from this. Just a suggestion for people who are in danger of losing their points.

 

[mannej]

I lost some points a few years ago but there are a couple of things you can do to keep your account active. If you have a Woolworths reward card, you can opt to convert each $10 balance to Qantas points. Log into your woolies a/c and follow the prompts. You can also register with Red Planet surveys to review different things. You will earn Qantas points from this. Just a suggestion for people who are in danger of losing their points.

The WW option isn't as easy as what it used to be.

The online mall is probably easier now that the search bar has gone.

Isn't Red Planet targeted, and not a free for all?

 

[rainbowgirl]

The WW option isn't as easy as what it used to be.

The online mall is probably easier now that the search bar has gone.

Isn't Red Planet targeted, and not a free for all?

I thought Red Planet was targeted. I've been trying to get an invitation to the survey group and haven't heard back from them.