Article: Why Airlines Love European Business Class

[shmoozy1]

I guess it's somewhat about expectations. If you are not familiar with it it can really be a surprise to rock up on your connection after a long haul and see the middle seat blocked and realise this is "business" class if you're used to short haul business in other regions.

It also depends on one's preferences. What do you see as being more important, the soft product or the hard product? If you're someone who cares more for the hard product it's a big disappointment, however if you care more for the soft product, a TK A320 business is still great even if it's not that different to economy in terms of the hard product.

Post automatically merged: Nov 29, 2023

The lie flat I had on the SQ MAX from SIN to PNH was probably better than the weird angled one SQ have on the long haul A350s and A380s! It's messed up SQ for me

Those SQ J seats are just appalling unless you are sub 1.6metres tall with size 8 or smaller feet

Post automatically merged: Nov 30, 2023

One thing about Eurobusiness, the premiums sometimes aren't that significant. I had a case last year travelling BRU-LHR/LHR-FRA (two day stopover) where taking business class on LHR-FRA instead of economy was only $20 more (I did have luggage so needed luggage inclusive fare, differential would have been greater with HLO).

Now you are definitely an optimist able to see the glass half full. For me eurobusiness is a glass with a drop of water in the bottom

 

[dajop]

The main upside of Eurobusiness is not having to worry about finding overhead cabin space for your luggage.

Yes.

Or alternatively, if you go LCC's in Europe, and pay for the privilege of bringing on board luggage, overhead cabin space is not so much of an issue. They all charge for anything larger than a relatively small backpack, and some go further than that and yield manage the cough out of it such that sometimes it will be cheaper to check it

EU aviation is a very different market.

 

[bpcmemorial]

Slight tangent but a good hack. On KLM's "Cityhopper" planes, which are all Embraers, the seats are the same in economy & business but business has a lot more legroom, 84cm vs. 79cm. Business Class is rows 1 to 6.

However... at weekends when there is no demand for business class, or as far as I can work out pretty much whenever they don't sell enough "business class", these seats are available as upfront seats with a normal economy ticket. So you can pay your $20 or whatever it is for an "upfront" seat and get an extra 5cm of legroom. Which if you're 6'3" like me and flying to Toulouse a few times a year is enough to make me fly KLM via Amsterdam rather than Air France via CDG, all other things being equal.

 

[RooFlyer]

Soft product = food, service, ammenities, etc
Hard product = seats, entertainment system, wifi, etc

TK's hard product is pretty varied:

• Long haul widebodies (B77W, A350, B787, A333, A332 (5x)): lie flat business class with "suites" on the A350s and B787s, but the dreaded middle seat on older product on the B77W
• Medium haul widebodies (A333, A332): not all the A330s have the lie flat, with a smaller subfleet of A333s (7x) having a regional product with recliners (similar to the 2x2 on a B738 or A320) and some A332s (6x) having old angled flat. These are typically used on flights < 8 hours.
• Older A320 series: A319s Y only; A320s CY flex, i.e. eurobusiness 3x3 with blocked middle when used as business; A321s 13x with CY flex, remaining +-52 with 2x2 recliners
• New A320 series: A321neo all with 2x2 recliners with modern business seat
• Older B737 series: B738 and B739s all with 2x2, several 3x3 now removed
• Newer B737 seriesL B738max and B739max with same new 2x2 with as A321neos

So about 31 older A320 series still with 3x3 business still active and fly some of the shorter routes into Europe. It can be the luck of the draw though, I had one of the 3x3 A320s two weeks back on a 90 minute flight, but looking its history it had done quite a few 3.5 hour legs into Europe that week. Same for the widebodies. A lot of the widebodies do sectors into Europe, so you can pick up a lie flat even, but one day it's a A350, the next day it's a B738. They are very nimble in their capacity management to Europe based on connecting flows and cargo.

They still have the same catering though no matter the hard product since catering is linked to flight time on TK, not aircraft (they have larger than typical galleys for this shorthaul aircraft - this has been a problem for TK with a lot of used aircraft that they have picked up since they have an unusually big catering load). FWIW, none of the older A320 and B737 series have wifi, while the neos and maxs do.

Thanks - an informative compilation. I guess we are talking about short-haul here and I see now your comment was particular to the older A320s.

My flights recently on TK were IST-KIV-IST. Looking back the outward leg was a 2-2 B738 (TV-JVC) with wi-fi and return was A321 2-2. not sure about w-fi.

TK's catering is well known (and experienced), but I didn't realise the increased catering load - but of course that makes sense.

Veered a bit o/t, sorry folks, but anything flying west of Istanbul is 'Euro'

 

[Revenge]

I honestly don't mind Eurobusiness.

Sure, it's not as good as the armchair recliners you get in Australia or North America, but the variable configuration usually means there are plenty of J fares available, often at good prices. The comfort level is good for one or two hours.

When I was living in London I'd occasionally splurge for Club Europe on BA, and it often wasn't expensive. It earned a good number of SCs/TPs for a relatively low cost.

Having said that, I did once do a status run LHR-HEL-TLV; TLV-HEL-LHR in Eurobusiness on BA/Finnair, where the HEL-TLV Finnair flight was a red eye. It wasn't at all comfortable for trying to get some sleep.

 

[PERLHR]

Euro business class works. Probably quite well actually. Airlines benefit in a very competitive environment by having Flexi moveable curtains so aircraft can be allocated on basically any route where the business cabin can be three rows or fifteen rows per sector. Flights generally are short and the aircraft can fly various sectors in one day. Prices can be low to compete. Often, for example BA, they have relatively cheap business fares enticing those in Europe to transit to destination via Heathrow. Love it or hate it, you generally find the cabin full. Often I would pay between 69 to 99 pounds to upgrade or have business return fares to lovely European destinations from LHR for 249 pounds return. Certainly puts in terms of cost some perspective on costs Australian flyers pay on trunk routes to fly QF or even VA. If collecting tier points or AVIOS often flying biz was beneficial.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Euro business class works. Probably quite well actually. Airlines benefit in a very competitive environment by having Flexi moveable curtains so aircraft can be allocated on basically any route where the business cabin can be three rows or fifteen rows per sector. Flights generally are short and the aircraft can fly various sectors in one day. Prices can be low to compete. Often, for example BA, they have relatively cheap business fares enticing those in Europe to transit to destination via Heathrow. Love it or hate it, you generally find the cabin full. Often I would pay between 69 to 99 pounds to upgrade or have business return fares to lovely European destinations from LHR for 249 pounds return. Certainly puts in terms of cost some perspective on costs Australian flyers pay on trunk routes to fly QF or even VA. If collecting tier points or AVIOS often flying biz was beneficial.

Yes! LHR-VCE when I was there last year was £225 in club, return! Was considering a day trip… breakfast on board, lunch and dinner in Venice, and a champagne supper on the way home! Plus SCs thrown in.

It’s hard not to like it as a concept. Save for those who aren’t fans of the flexible seating.

 

[Revenge]

Yes! LHR-VCE when I was there last year was £225 in club, return! Was considering a day trip… breakfast on board, lunch and dinner in Venice, and a champagne supper on the way home! Plus SCs thrown in.

It’s hard not to like it as a concept. Save for those who aren’t fans of the flexible seating.

Agreed. I remember a lovely weekend I had in Bordeaux, flying from LGW for a similar price.

 

[Mattg]

It’s hard not to like it as a concept. Save for those who aren’t fans of the flexible seating.

It's basically fine, until you end up on a red-eye flight. I recall flying LOT from WAW-NQZ and it was on a 737 with Euro-business - not great for a 5-hour flight leaving around midnight as there's basically no chance of getting much sleep. Lufthansa also uses A320s with this setup on routes like CAI-FRA with a departure time of 01:45.

But for shorter day flights, totally acceptable!

 

[Mattg]

I flew on a BA CityFlyer Embraer E190 today, which has a 2-2 seating layout throughout the plane. I was a bit surprised that all of the seats in the Club Europe cabin were allocated.

I guess technically this is as advertised, as BA says that its Club Europe cabin has a "guaranteed window or aisle seat", rather than "empty neighbouring seat". But I was under the impression that most other airlines flying the E190 within Europe (e.g. Lufthansa, Austrian, LOT, etc.) only allocate one seat out of each pair in J?

 

[Pushka]

I flew on a BA CityFlyer Embraer E190 today, which has a 2-2 seating layout throughout the plane. I was a bit surprised that all of the seats in the Club Europe cabin were allocated.

I guess technically this is as advertised, as BA says that its Club Europe cabin has a "guaranteed window or aisle seat", rather than "empty neighbouring seat". But I was under the impression that most other airlines flying the E190 within Europe (e.g. Lufthansa, Austrian, LOT, etc.) only allocate one seat out of each pair in J?

I think there were 20 rows of Business class on our recent flight from Lucerne to LHR.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I flew on a BA CityFlyer Embraer E190 today, which has a 2-2 seating layout throughout the plane. I was a bit surprised that all of the seats in the Club Europe cabin were allocated.

I guess technically this is as advertised, as BA says that its Club Europe cabin has a "guaranteed window or aisle seat", rather than "empty neighbouring seat". But I was under the impression that most other airlines flying the E190 within Europe (e.g. Lufthansa, Austrian, LOT, etc.) only allocate one seat out of each pair in J?

I think it’s only the ‘LH group’ that do this. So all the airlines you mentioned. But not sure that extends to the OW alliance.

 

[dk4]

I think it’s only the ‘LH group’ that do this. So all the airlines you mentioned. But not sure that extends to the OW alliance.

I have flown on a Swiss A220, on the two seat side, and they did block the seat next to me. (They alternated between blocking window and aisle, presumably so no one would recline into you?)

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I have flown on a Swiss A220, on the two seat side, and they did block the seat next to me. (They alternated between blocking window and aisle, presumably so no one would recline into you?)

I think that was the theory when Lufthansa first started it. LH now just assigns the window seats on a 2-2 configuration and lets the passenger decide where they want to sit! Swiss seems to have kept the alternating seats. But you can move anyway, so no biggie.

 

[PERLHR]

I think it’s only the ‘LH group’ that do this. So all the airlines you mentioned. But not sure that extends to the OW alliance.

Been on a few Finnair Emb aircraft and they seem to block the adjoining seat although I'm not sure if it's totally a biz perk or just depending on booked loads. BA do not block neighbour seats on the city flyer Embs. Nor do Iberia on their regional jets.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Been on a few Finnair Emb aircraft and they seem to block the adjoining seat although I'm not sure if it's totally a biz perk or just depending on booked loads. BA do not block neighbour seats on the city flyer Embs. Nor do Iberia on their regional jets.

Finnair no longer had business class unfortunately in europe Only premium economy, called ‘SAS plus’. They don’t block any seats anymore… it’s 3-3 on 737/320 and 2-2 on regional jets.

Completely talking about the wrong airline!

 

[PERLHR]

Finnair doesn’t have business class anymore unfortunately in europe Only premium economy, called ‘SAS plus’.

I think you are mixing Finnair and SAS up? SAS are different carrier to Finnair. I fly AY often and they do maintain a free seat in business cabin on 319/320 and 321 aircraft.

 

[jase05]

I have flown on a Swiss A220, on the two seat side, and they did block the seat next to me. (They alternated between blocking window and aisle, presumably so no one would recline into you?)

AF do similar on their A220’s

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I think you are mixing Finnair and SAS up? SAS are different carrier to Finnair. I fly AY often and they do maintain a free seat in business cabin on 319/320 and 321 aircraft.

Yes! I’ve completely mixed them up!

My bad.

 

[moa999]

I think there were 20 rows of Business class on our recent flight from Lucerne to LHR.

And I've seen similar on BA LHR-FRA for example, and equally seen BA flights with only 1 or 2 rows.

It's ultimately great flexibility for the airlines which can mean more profitability (or alternatively as above) much cheaper J class premiums versus Y.