Downgraded from business class-AGAIN[Flight Change Revoked]

[amaroo]

In business - you're only as good as your last cough-up

 

[Himeno]

Great question. Stats aren't my specialty but up until August 2014 QFi carried 477,000 passengers and QFd 1,864,000 passengers
http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/trafficStats/august-2014.pdf

That number looked a bit low so I checked the pdf.
It says 477,000 pax on QFi in Aug 14/15 and 985,000 FY14/15 YTD. Roughly 15% of seats are J, so assume approx 147,000 QFi J pax FY14/15 YTD (July/August)

 

[JohnK]

I disagree there is nothing in common between Duffa being wrongly re-booked at his request on an earlier flight and someone being involuntarily downgraded on QFi due to overselling.

I'm a glass half full type of person and I don't see any common link between any of the recent stories on travellers in premium cabins.

Considering we don't have the full facts behind both situations, it is a bit hard to draw a credible link between the two.

I am merely going by what ozbeachbabe posted as a very experienced person.

Duffa's situation caused overselling so they were taken off the flight.

Someone else caused overselling on EmilyP's parents flight yet it was EmilyP's parents that were downgraded.

Something is not quite right here. An inconsistency in the interpretation of the rules?

I don't care how many people have flown in business since and have not been inconvenienced. It is the handling of the cases that go wrong that are important. And Qantas has got it wrong by not bothering to fix it. I mean the attitude that $700 is adequate compensation from business to economy is totally wrong. The rest just feeds off it.

P.S. The quotes above are still broken.

P.P.S I am terrified the same thing will happen.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I am merely going by what ozbeachbabe posted as a very experienced person.

Duffa's situation caused overselling so they were taken off the flight.

Someone else caused overselling on EmilyP's parents flight yet it was EmilyP's parents that were downgraded.

Something is not quite right here. An inconsistency in the interpretation of the rules?

I don't care how many people have flown in business since and have not been inconvenienced. It is the handling of the cases that go wrong that are important. And Qantas has got it wrong by not bothering to fix it. I mean the attitude that $700 is adequate compensation from business to economy is totally wrong. The rest just feeds off it.

P.S. The quotes above are still broken.

P.P.S I am terrified the same thing will happen.

The quotes aren't broken for me, and by all means it's your right to be terrified JohnK, me I'm not so terrified as a frequent traveller on QF J who has yet to have the sky fall on them ..

 

[mannej]

I am merely going by what ozbeachbabe posted as a very experienced person.

Duffa's situation caused overselling so they were taken off the flight.

Someone else caused overselling on EmilyP's parents flight yet it was EmilyP's parents that were downgraded.

Something is not quite right here. An inconsistency in the interpretation of the rules?

I don't care how many people have flown in business since and have not been inconvenienced. It is the handling of the cases that go wrong that are important. And Qantas has got it wrong by not bothering to fix it. I mean the attitude that $700 is adequate compensation from business to economy is totally wrong. The rest just feeds off it.

P.S. The quotes above are still broken.

P.P.S I am terrified the same thing will happen.

JohnK, as an experienced member and frequent flyer, you should know that not two situations are ever the same in the world of airlines. We don't know the full set of facts behind the other case you have mentioned, so it is hard to make comment if or if not the same set of rules have been applied.

 

[RAM]

Yield management have nothing whatsoever to do with Duffa's flight being overbooked and this has been explained clearly and logically by ozbeachbabe who has first hand experience of airport operations.

The trouble is that OzBeachBabe's explanation may well be logical but it is not what Duffa reported.

In the LAX thread you and others repeatedly downplay Q's handling of the situation. Some in excusing Red Roo accusing EmilyP & parents of misrepresenting but not saying what about, trying to point the finger at an agent 'paid two weeks ago' but only notified parents this morning, or interpreting no update from EmilyP as a sign that Q has done the right thing and there is a confidentiality clause.

Why did Red Roo stay silent and not simply post an update to clarify the situation that it was still in process rather than allow a series of posts lauding the 'glass is 99% full goodness of Qantas'? No contact was made with the parents until after EmilyP posted an update, why?

As you say OzBeachBabe is knowledgeable about operations then she would know about the billing cycles and refund processing - which clearly shows the disingenuous nature of Red Roo's response.

Similarly Red Roo was asked by me to provide a copy of the compensation policy. The Q web site states it will be provided on request. I have requested but it has not been provided. Why? Do you think that Q does not need to live up to what is professes are its procedures and policies or those required by the statutory authorities?

If its staff are not sufficiently well trained then that is a senior management failing. If they are adequately trained but fail to fulfill their obligations that again it is a senior and also middle management failing.

In this case perhaps a mistake was made. Mistakes happen, what is important is whether the organisation is honest about what happened or not.

How do you know that the explanation given by the Lounge staff to the OP was a lie?

Well as Duffa was told two different stories then one of them must not be true? Either there were plenty of seats available or there were not. Pick which one appeals to you. Both cannot be true. Duffa has clarified that the CSM had his details and was checking in the system so there should have been no issue over seating class - would you concede that point?

It seems that you have some serious issues with Qantas as a company and with their customer service but to continually accuse QF employees of lying on this forum does both them and yourself no favours.

When credible posters report being told conflicting information that is not true then I do call a spade a spade. It is a fact that AJ & Board have shifted fuel surcharges from JQI to QI - it is always a problem putting out a media release too quickly because once released it exists.

The 2012 MR revealed what a number of people knew and could prove but it was the first admission by Q that fuel surcharges had nothing to do with the fuel used on a certain route per passenger capacity. Something that Q Mgmt and Board had previously claimed in results briefings under questioning was how fuel surcharges were levied. In a previous thread I provided a couple of examples where the JQ plane used more fuel per passenger on the identical route yet the fuel surcharge was a fraction of Q's. All the data was sourced from the IATA database.

I have serious issues with any organisation that is not honest with its customers.

Luckily I am in the position that I can and do take it to board level. In more recent years that has been very successful in getting procedures changed for major banks and retail organisations. In a couple of cases it has resulted in compensation being paid to others.

With Q I have had individual success but not succeeded in getting procedural change.

It is very telling that virtually no institutional fund managers hold Q shares other than a few index funds. It is about the only top 100 company in this position. As some sages say, Q is a value trap - it destroys it.

 

[tuapekastar]

Downgraded from business class - AGAIN

To misquote Shakespeare: "Very Much Ado About Not Very Much!"

OP had J reservations on flight.
Flight delayed (and we all know how common and run-of-the-mill this is).
OP requests or is offered to move to earlier flight. Is told 'yes' and issued new J BPs
OP is paged to be told QF mistakenly allocated too many bums to too few seats on earlier flight and will need to revert to Plan A (originally booked flight)
OP, for reasons unclear, is sure QF have lied regarding the reasons for the reversion to original flight
It emerges that, after the bums/seats issue was discovered, OP is offered Y on the earlier flight. OP declines
OP flies, as booked and paid for (in whatever currency) in J on QF776.

There is NO downgrade. This is indisputable.
OP has no way of 'knowing' why the reversion to the original flight was necessary. Suggest go with what QF tells him/her, as anything else is just speculation.

I would not be happy to be issued J BPs for an earlier flight then be told I need to revert to the original flight (or fly Y). Qantas had a small fail, though undoubtedly while attempting to help. Small rollercoaster ride for OP, ended up with what was booked, albeit with a delay, which is not uncommon.

 

[Pushka]

I guess I am more concerned about what happened with EmilyP's parents than with this situation to be honest. I think this is more of a lucky chance that almost paid off but came unstuck at the last hurdle. Disappointing yes, but delays occur, sometimes have more impact than others, but this result would be annoying but I could live with it.

 

[medhead]

To misquote Shakespeare: "Very Much Ado About Not Very Much!"

OP had J reservations on flight.
Flight delayed (and we all know how common and run-of-the-mill this is).
OP requests or is offered to move to earlier flight. Is told 'yes' and issued new J BPs
OP is paged to be told QF mistakenly allocated too many bums to too few seats on earlier flight and will need to revert to Plan A (originally booked flight)
OP, for reasons unclear, is sure QF have lied regarding the reasons for the reversion to original flight
It emerges that, after the bums/seats issue was discovered, OP is offered Y on the earlier flight. OP declines
OP flies, as booked and paid for (in whatever currency) in J on QF776.

There is NO downgrade. This is indisputable.
OP has no way of 'knowing' why the reversion to the original flight was necessary. Suggest go with what QF tells him/her, as anything else is just speculation.

I would not be happy to be issued J BPs for an earlier flight then be told I need to revert to the original flight (or fly Y). Qantas had a small fail, though undoubtedly while attempting to help. Small rollercoaster ride for OP, ended up with what was booked, albeit with a delay, which is not uncommon.

I see how you've convoluted the time line and downgrade one occurrence to a footnote. If someone calls you to the desk, asks for you business board passes and hands you economy boarding passes, that is a downgrade right there at that point. What happens later does not make that magically disappear, no matter how many times someone rewrites the timeline.

 

[opusman]

I see how you've convoluted the time line and downgrade one occurrence to a footnote. If someone calls you to the desk, asks for you business board passes and hands you economy boarding passes, that is a downgrade right there at that point. What happens later does not make that magically disappear, no matter how many times someone rewrites the timeline.

I don't think anyone's disputing that Qantas or someone employed by Qantas made a mistake.

What is under dispute is the nature of the mistake (i.e. mistake, yes, vast evil conspiracy, no) and the end result of said mistake (i.e. flying originally booked flight in originally booked class, yes, downgrade, NO).

 

[medhead]

I don't think anyone's disputing that Qantas or someone employed by Qantas made a mistake.

What is under dispute is the nature of the mistake (i.e. mistake, yes, vast evil conspiracy, no) and the end result of said mistake (i.e. flying originally booked flight in originally booked class, yes, downgrade, NO).

Subsequently upgrading someone does not change the fact that they were downgraded. The end result does not make the events magically disappear. As I've said some people seem to be getting confused by the outcome to the point of ignoring the events that actually happened. The outcome absolutely does not take away that they were downgraded. Give me your business boarding pass, here is an economy boarding pass - I'm surprised that anyone can seriously argue that isn't a downgrade.

Oh and just for your edification, I am certainly not claiming vast evil conspiracy. Acknowledging that at one point they were downgraded certainly doesn't require a vast evil conspiracy. One thinks you doth protest too much.

 

[opusman]

Give me your business boarding pass, here is an economy boarding pass - I'm surprised that anyone can seriously argue that isn't a downgrade.

But that's not what happened. It was "Oh sorry, we shouldn't have given you that seat at all. We can put you back on your original flight or if you still want to go earlier you can but it would be in Y".

You only have to read the other (now closed) downgrade thread to see how different the two situations are.

 

[medhead]

It was "Oh sorry, we shouldn't have given you that seat at all. We can put you back on your original flight or if you still want to go earlier you can but it would be in Y".

No it wasn't.

No; 2 x J redemptions
Was offered 2x Y seats on the earlier flight and told they weren't great seats. With a points refund.

You only have to read the other (now closed) downgrade thread to see how different the two situations are.

I have never made any claim of equivalence between the two situations, so no I don't have to read the other thread. I treat both as separate, different events. Being different does not mean both weren't examples of a downgrade occurring at some stage. In fact, the only people who seem to be trying to equate the two situations are those who are also trying to pretend they weren't offered 2 economy seats.

 

[opusman]

Methinks you haven't bothered reading the thread properly.

 

[medhead]

Methinks you haven't bothered reading the thread properly.

I've read post #3 which is more than you seem to have managed.

edit: or perhaps you mean I haven't bothered to bowed down to your view?

 

[Princess Fiona]

Downgraded from business class - AGAIN

I see how you've convoluted the time line and downgrade one occurrence to a footnote. If someone calls you to the desk, asks for you business board passes and hands you economy boarding passes, that is a downgrade right there at that point. What happens later does not make that magically disappear, no matter how many times someone rewrites the timeline.

When was the OP handed economy BP ?
He states that they were called up to the desk and advised that they had been put back on their original flight in J.
Can't see anywhere where they were handed economy boarding passes.

 

[amaroo]

I have never made any claim of equivalence between the two situations, so no I don't have to read the other thread. I treat both as separate, different events. Being different does not mean both weren't examples of a downgrade occurring at some stage. In fact, the only people who seem to be trying to equate the two situations are those who are also trying to pretend they weren't offered 2 economy seats.

Indeed.

Only a matter of time before the lobbying starts....

 

[mannej]

No it wasn't.





I have never made any claim of equivalence between the two situations, so no I don't have to read the other thread. I treat both as separate, different events. Being different does not mean both weren't examples of a downgrade occurring at some stage. In fact, the only people who seem to be trying to equate the two situations are those who are also trying to pretend they weren't offered 2 economy seats.

You are conjecturing about the order in which they were offered the seats in Y on the earlier flight.

From post 1 and 3, it isn't clear as to what order this happened in. For all we know the offer of the Y seat came about because the OP asked to stay on the earlier flight after they were handed back their boarding passes for the original flight.

 

[opusman]

edit: or perhaps you mean I haven't bothered to bowed down to your view?

Do you expect me to bow down to yours instead?

Why do you always take someone disagreeing with your opinion as a personal attack?

I'm not sure you're really cut out for this Internet forum stuff...

 

[RAM]

To misquote Shakespeare: "Very Much Ado About Not Very Much!"

OP had J reservations on flight.
Flight delayed (and we all know how common and run-of-the-mill this is).
OP requests or is offered to move to earlier flight. Is told 'yes' and issued new J BPs
OP is paged to be told QF mistakenly allocated too many bums to too few seats on earlier flight and will need to revert to Plan A (originally booked flight)
OP, for reasons unclear, is sure QF have lied regarding the reasons for the reversion to original flight
It emerges that, after the bums/seats issue was discovered, OP is offered Y on the earlier flight. OP declines
OP flies, as booked and paid for (in whatever currency) in J on QF776.

There is NO downgrade. This is indisputable.
OP has no way of 'knowing' why the reversion to the original flight was necessary. Suggest go with what QF tells him/her, as anything else is just speculation.

I would not be happy to be issued J BPs for an earlier flight then be told I need to revert to the original flight (or fly Y). Qantas had a small fail, though undoubtedly while attempting to help. Small rollercoaster ride for OP, ended up with what was booked, albeit with a delay, which is not uncommon.

Your summary of events is quite good but the issue I and others have is that the story changed. Flight delays I have no problem with, mistakes owned up to and handled professionally do not cause me any trouble.

What I take exception about is when I or others are told two of more contradicting stories. A company that allows its operatives to 'spin' is a company that cannot be trusted IMHO.

Red Roo has stated that over-selling occurs whenever possible. In this case we do not know whether this particular flight was already over-sold or not. Perhaps Red Roo could clarify that?

If it wasn't then that opens one line of reasoning and prompts a number of questions.
If it was then that creates a different progression and many more questions.

Surely a simple statement by Q that Flight XYS on Nov ZZ had been oversold by x seats in J, a seats in Y+ and had bb empty seats in Y. The (in)correct information was provided and the boarding passes issued for two seats however GGGGGG occurred which the CSM decided to resolve by KKKKKK.

That's how I operate. If I've mucked up I admit to it, apologise, have a post-mortem on a monthly basis to see if there are any repeat issues that suggest protocols need amending and move on. That's why customers from 30 years ago stay in contact. In a service industry service actually matters IMHO.

What I have observed is that companies using external consultants regularly often exhibit dysfunctional behaviour that benefits nobody but the consultants' chargeable hours.