Downgraded from Business Class on Qantas due to "tech crew" [pilot] Travel Requirements

[Pushka]

In which case the Qantas pilots’ behaviour in the lounge might also be mentioned again. After all, that was the thing which started this whole thread!!

That's the weirdest thing. The QP was packed. And the only people we took note of was these two because we were sitting at the next table, the only one free, furthest from the entrance. Until NZ was called and tables became free. And then I posted, which was about an hour before take off. JohnK simulation at it's finest.

 

[arrow]

This is right on the front of News.com.au - so good. Hopefully puts pressure on Qantas to instate a proper compensation scheme when this occurs. The behaviour of the employee to the wife is pretty shocking too - customers pay his salary.

 

[Rabs97]

The reason was that a pilot needed to get to Adelaide for a flight and could only do business class as per an enterprise agreement.

The provision in the EA is there for safety. To ensure that a pilot has as comfortable as a seat as possible before going from paxing to operating a flight. To reduce the likelihood of fatigue.

Such things are specified in EAs.

 

[Seat0B]

regardless of point vs cash, if I got downgraded, i at a MINIMUM would except the different in fare costs back

And I as I highlighted upthread, you will be disappointed to find that the refund you will be offered is the difference between what you paid and the most expensive possible economy ticket- so often only a few dollars given back, rather than what most rational people would expect o get which would be the difference between the amount paid and the cheapest economy ticket. Honestly, if you knew you were going to fly economy, would you choose to pay the most expensive ticket at the date of travel, or the cheapest ticket at the date of booking? It’s a rort they have been getting away with for years.

 

[Eastwick20]

I get that crew repositioning say MEL - SIN would absolutely require J to get sufficient rest but seriously is J really necessary for a flight to ADL where your only in the air for 50 - 60 minutes?

Seats available up the front? go for your life but If you have customers in J then for a short hop
it blows my mind that QF agreed to it in the EBA, regardless it is what it is now.

I know the argument for being fully rested before undertaking a demanding job etc but
I think the general public in their minds equate it to someone they worked with getting a chauffeur stretched limo to work over taking a 1 hour bus or train trip like everyone else.

Getting lounge access before duty travel does make sense to me though.

 

[Ktan89]

Probably not, someone called up a radio station this morning (I think 3AW Rumour File) to share their experiance and it just took off from there so just coincidence that this thread was around.

Yes the Pun was intended.
No I will not apologise for it.

Yeah ok, i just saw they updated the article with more information and put the gentlemens name in.
It's also headlining on news.com.au now

 

[arrow]

The provision in the EA is there for safety. To ensure that a pilot has as comfortable as a seat as possible before going from paxing to operating a flight. To reduce the likelihood of fatigue.

Such things are specified in EAs.

I doubt he would be any less tired flying economy on such a short leg (I can understand a long haul flight) - the gentlemen who paid the J ticket is paying his salary and should get preference.

 

[TheRealTMA]

If a cabin is oversold, why doesn't QF auction compensation like the US carriers do? That would be the fairest way to deal with it. Eventually someone will take it.

Because there's no laws here mandating it.

 

[SOPOOR]

And I as I highlighted upthread, you will be disappointed to find that the refund you will be offered is the difference between what you paid and the most expensive possible economy ticket- so often only a few dollars given back, rather than what most rational people would expect o get which would be the difference between the amount paid and the cheapest economy ticket. Honestly, if you knew you were going to fly economy, would you choose to pay the most expensive ticket at the date of travel, or the cheapest ticket at the date of booking? It’s a rort they have been getting away with for years.

Sure the next question would be at which value do you calculate the ticket paid vs ticket refunded

There has to be a happy medium
What angers me is that the option to screw the customer over seems to apply each time.

Im sure it went the other way, qantas would get their act together

 

[kangarooflyer88]

my parents years ago, when they got to the airport, their flight was cancelled, and due to technical difficulties, the only flight available was from a 1 hour by plane away airport, airline paid for hotels, meals, transport and everything, exceptional service

guess the airline? no it wasnt Singapore, it was JETSTAR

ive flown jetstar maybe twice to 3 times a year and the service has been exceptional

I've said it before and I'll say it again JétStar is the luxury airline division of Qantas Group. Do they cancel flights more often than Qantas? Absolutely. But you know what, they don't leave you high and dry out there. When my flight back from HBA was cancelled with them earlier this year, I was able to book whatever hotel I liked and get meals and then claim it back to JQ. The process was super smooth. Maybe 10 minutes on chat and a couple days later I see the reimbursement is in the account. Had this been QF I would've received the runaround especially since I didn't have World Platinum status.

If a cabin is oversold, why doesn't QF auction compensation like the US carriers do? That would be the fairest way to deal with it. Eventually someone will take it.

Better yet, why doesn't QF auction seats off at the gate (certainly not a stretch for an airline that allegedly sold tickets for flights they wouldn't operate)?
Alan Joyce: "If you really want to be on this plane you better open your wallets"

The provision in the EA is there for safety. To ensure that a pilot has as comfortable as a seat as possible before going from paxing to operating a flight. To reduce the likelihood of fatigue.

Such things are specified in EAs.

I understand that and what I think everyone is saying is airlines like Qantas should not treat this as a one off thing. There needs to be a process in place where the customer isn't humiliated by being forced to pick up their belongings and head the middle seat at the back of the bus. Maybe put them on a later flight or offer compensation beyond 5,000 points for starters.

-RooFlyer88

 

[Ambo]

I doubt he would be any less tired flying economy on such a short leg (I can understand a long haul flight) - the gentlemen who paid the J ticket is paying his salary and should get preference.

Doesn't matter, the law is QANTAS has to provide the J Class seat to the pilot.

QANTAS having agreed to that, should be refunding the full ticket knowing that they legally have to bump passangers to fulfil their obligations. And they should definitely be respectful in they way they bump people.

 

[SOPOOR]

I've said it before and I'll say it again JétStar is the luxury airline division of Qantas Group. Do they cancel flights more often than Qantas? Absolutely. But you know what, they don't leave you high and dry out there. When my flight back from HBA was cancelled with them earlier this year, I was able to book whatever hotel I liked and get meals and then claim it back to JQ. The process was super smooth. Maybe 10 minutes on chat and a couple days later I see the reimbursement is in the account. Had this been QF I would've received the runaround especially since I didn't have World Platinum status.

Better yet, why doesn't QF auction seats off at the gate (certainly not a stretch for an airline that allegedly sold tickets for flights they wouldn't operate)?
Alan Joyce: "If you really want to be on this plane you better open your wallets"


I understand that and what I think everyone is saying is airlines like Qantas should not treat this as a one off thing. There needs to be a process in place where the customer isn't humiliated by being forced to pick up their belongings and head the middle seat at the back of the bus. Maybe put them on a later flight or offer compensation beyond 5,000 points for starters.

-RooFlyer88

And a few years ago, my 9pm departure flight from bali was delayed by 4 hours or so, they notified me about 5pm via email.

And after i contacted them they offered to pay for an extra hotel night.

I almost fell off my chair!

The above for a LCC vs premium qantas,

What would have qantas done?
Maybe quote change of aircraft, downgrade business to economy, give you 5000 qff points after 6 months of chasing and make you buy another ticket a full price because you missed your connection

 

[Pushka]

Doesn't matter, the law is QANTAS has to provide the J Class seat to the pilot.

QANTAS having agreed to that, should be refunding the full ticket knowing that they legally have to bump passangers to fulfil their obligations. And they should definitely be respectful in they way they bump people.

And what other tricks lie in wait with those EBA we don't even know about.

 

[jpp42]

Has the industry learned nothing from the United "doctor dragging" incident? They need to be running their operations in a way that people getting bumped is an extraordinarily remote occurrence. Does that mean they might have to hire more staff and have them on standby, at places like Adelaide? Perhaps but that would benefit them in many ways than just this. And if downgrading someone is needed, why not try for volunteers first? Perhaps starting the offers at $500 cash or 50,000 points would turn some heads - that's nothing compared to the cost of cancelling the ex-Adelaide flight. There's plenty of ways to solve this while still honouring the EBA.

 

[Must...Fly!]

Has the industry learned nothing from the United "doctor dragging" incident? They need to be running their operations in a way that people getting bumped is an extraordinarily remote occurrence. Does that mean they might have to hire more staff and have them on standby, at places like Adelaide? Perhaps but that would benefit them in many ways than just this. And if downgrading someone is needed, why not try for volunteers first? Perhaps starting the offers at $500 cash or 50,000 points would turn some heads - that's nothing compared to the cost of cancelling the ex-Adelaide flight. There's plenty of ways to solve this while still honouring the EBA.

Exactly.

The EBA is not the problem.

Poor practices in honouring it, are. There's countless ways Qantas could approach this to make it better for the customer. And in almost typical fashion, it seems the employee is the one who is supposed to suffer (tech crew right to highest class of travel) when it's the corporate direction on compensation and general attitude to the customer which is actually the problem.

 

[serfty]

I saw that article on news.com.au this morning and straight away I thought of this thread.
Is it just me or anyone else wondering if a reporter saw this thread, decide to post it and thought hey why not chuck in there that it happened to a war vet too.
haha you know.. the news being the news..

It has been answered, but for its roots and a sort of timeline, see from post #319

Anyone care to guess why this happened today? A new way forward - err backwards for Qantas?

Assuming these were QantasLink pilots, it’s worth noting that the FO is on an annual salary of a little under $64,000pa. In the regional of a supermarket employee. If a seat in business class is one little perk they’re entitled to, I’d say it’s reasonable for them to get it. No one forces them...

www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au

 

[drron]

So now if you do buy a J fare on QF domestic take a screen shot of Economy fares at that time. I would then insist the refund should be the difference between the lowest economy fare on that day, as that is what I would have bought, and how much I paid for J.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Doesn't matter, the law is QANTAS has to provide the J Class seat to the pilot.

Is there a commonwealth law that explicitly states pilots for an airline must be provided with business class seating when available? If not it is part of an enterprise agreement which like the contract of carriage for passengers is yet another agreement. I suppose the real question is which agreement takes precedence here?

Section 4.7 of QF's contract of carriage spells this out:

If we need to ask you to downgrade for any reason, we will at your option:

• provide you with an appropriate refund of the difference in fares (or an appropriate credit of Qantas Points in the event that you are travelling on a Qantas Frequent Flyer Award), or
• accommodate you on a reasonable alternative available flight on our services.

As we can see Qantas provides two potential remedies here.

First they can provide you with an appropriate refund of the fare difference. One thing that is unclear interpreting that language is how do they calculate that fare difference? Are they comparing a red e-deal price versus the premium cabin fare you paid for? Or are they looking at a Flex economy versus the Premium fare you paid? Also when are they making that fare difference calculation? If anything it should be at the time you made the booking on a revenue ticket since had you known business wouldn't be available for you, chances are you would have selected another fare. For frequent flyer awards, that is seems straight-forward except for the bit where passengers are travelling on multiple sectors in the award and the downgrade happened on one sector - how would that be calculated? For instance, if I flew MEL > SYD > SIN in J but MEL > SYD was downgraded. Would I receive a refund of the J award price for the MEL > SYD sector? Some might argue that is asking too much since QF considers the total distance in such itineraries so maybe it's a prorated discount.

Second they can accommodate you on some other flight. But the question then is under what terms? Is it simply the next flight that has a J seat available or are there restrictions on fare classes you need to rebooked into. If the latter, that is unfair since after all it was not your fault that you got bumped. It's also unclear whether accommodation would be made for hotels and meals if you have to overnight it due to this muck up. To give yet another example, suppose I was bumped off the MEL > LAX evening flight. Would QF arrange to get me to SYD to catch the morning flight out (providing accommodation at SYD)? Again unclear by the terms.

What we know about the law is that when companies don't spell out the terms it gives their agents more latitude in how they can handle customers. No doubt QF World Platinums and Platinum Ones will be given more leniency in the policy than Lifetime Bronze members. One way to address this is of course to take QF to court when they don't meet the terms they state to your satisfaction.

-RooFlyer88

 

[SOPOOR]

So now if you do buy a J fare on QF domestic take a screen shot of Economy fares at that time. I would then insist the refund should be the difference between the lowest economy fare on that day, as that is what I would have bought, and how much I paid for J.

But is that how refunds are calculated?

Dont qantas just look at the price today ie the most expensive, and say "youre refund is $30, wait 12 weeks, bad luck even though your business class cost $8000

 

[Ambo]

And what other tricks lie in wait with those EBA we don't even know about.

It's a publicly available document on the Fair Work Commission Website.

Is there a commonwealth law that explicitly states pilots for an airline must be provided with business class seating when available? If not it is part of an enterprise agreement which like the contract of carriage for passengers is yet another agreement. I suppose the real question is which agreement takes precedence here?

Section 4.7 of QF's contract of carriage spells this out:



As we can see Qantas provides two potential remedies here.

First they can provide you with an appropriate refund of the fare difference. One thing that is unclear interpreting that language is how do they calculate that fare difference? Are they comparing a red e-deal price versus the premium cabin fare you paid for? Or are they looking at a Flex economy versus the Premium fare you paid? Also when are they making that fare difference calculation? If anything it should be at the time you made the booking on a revenue ticket since had you known business wouldn't be available for you, chances are you would have selected another fare. For frequent flyer awards, that is seems straight-forward except for the bit where passengers are travelling on multiple sectors in the award and the downgrade happened on one sector - how would that be calculated? For instance, if I flew MEL > SYD > SIN in J but MEL > SYD was downgraded. Would I receive a refund of the J award price for the MEL > SYD sector? Some might argue that is asking too much since QF considers the total distance in such itineraries so maybe it's a prorated discount.

Second they can accommodate you on some other flight. But the question then is under what terms? Is it simply the next flight that has a J seat available or are there restrictions on fare classes you need to rebooked into. If the latter, that is unfair since after all it was not your fault that you got bumped. It's also unclear whether accommodation would be made for hotels and meals if you have to overnight it due to this muck up. To give yet another example, suppose I was bumped off the MEL > LAX evening flight. Would QF arrange to get me to SYD to catch the morning flight out (providing accommodation at SYD)? Again unclear by the terms.

What we know about the law is that when companies don't spell out the terms it gives their agents more latitude in how they can handle customers. No doubt QF World Platinums and Platinum Ones will be given more leniency in the policy than Lifetime Bronze members. One way to address this is of course to take QF to court when they don't meet the terms they state to your satisfaction.

-RooFlyer88

No, it's the law that says if QANTAS agrees to provide a J Seat to their employees, they have to follow through with it. Section 50 of the Fair Work Act (2009).

Section 4.7 of QF's contract of carriage says they can either accommodate a passenger on a reasonable alternate flight or pay the fare difference. They do not guarantee you a seat.

13.2 says is the ticket is used, the difference is refunded.

In the end the Contract of Carriage allows QANTAS to downgrade a passenger but the Fair Work Act does not allow them to negate the agreed EBA.

I want to make it clear that the contract of carriage is severly deficient and it is my strong opinion that if QANTAS downgrades a passanger due to EBA or Overbooking, they should refund the whole fare and give some extra compensation. (5000 points is a joke)