Downgraded from Business Class on Qantas due to "tech crew" [pilot] Travel Requirements

[Ambo]

You're missing the point. No one is saying Qantas should violate the EBA*. But the situation simply shouldn't exist in the first place. People in this thread are sugggesting:

* Qantas should operate in a manner such that this is an extremely rare situation; i.e. having enough standby pilots in all major ports, planning most deadhead moves well in advance
* If there is no alternative, Qantas must come up with fairer ways such as voluntary downgrades for market based compensation (i.e. keep increasing the compensation until even Donald Trump would take it.)
* Qantas should try to renegotiate the EBA to make the right to business class less strict on short-haul flights (I understand not all would agree, but it's an option), given it's unlikely to actually be a "safety issue."
* Australia should implement fairer compensation schemes for all such issues, along the lines of US DOT's denied boarding rules or EU 261. This is the real crux of the matter.

* I would also wonder if the EBA is quite as strict as people are making it out to be. What is the actual contractual remedy if Qantas is forced to fly a deadhead pilot in Economy class? It's not like someone's going to gaol for a "violation of federal law." I suspect the actual impact will might well be elsewhere, i.e. the deadheading flight in economy might count as paid duty time rather than rest time or something like that.

I never said QANTAS should be able to do what it does.

In a previous post, I said the conditions of carriage weren't great and that better compensation should be provided.

But if people are going to say that the Conditions of Carriage supersede the EBA, when they don't, then I'm going to reinforce that in the current language, the EBA supersedes the conditions of carriage.

The latest penalty handed out for breach of the EBA was $1.2 million I believe which included penalties and compensation to the affected parties.

 

[SOPOOR]

Regardless of eba's and stuff, of which im not too familiar or interested in

If a customer like this 76 yr old is displaced, then qantas have to make it right. Whether it be a appropriate refund/compensation.

When you dine at fine dining, if your dish is clearly sub par eg medium rare steak comes well done. You either get a replacement or even the dish for free.
Imagine ordering a $150 wagyu steak, getting a $40 rump, and then getting a $10 voucher 7 weeks later

What a joke

Cant believe the standard thats deemed acceptable

 

[Ambo]

Regardless of eba's and stuff, of which im not too familiar or interested in

If a customer like this 76 yr old is displaced, then qantas have to make it right. Whether it be a appropriate refund/compensation.

When you dine at fine dining, if your dish is clearly sub par eg medium rare steak comes well done. You either get a replacement or even the dish for free.
Imagine ordering a $150 wagyu steak, getting a $40 rump, and then getting a $10 voucher 7 weeks later

What a joke

Cant believe the standard thats deemed acceptable

No I wouldn't.

As said before, I think a full refund for the fare is in order plus some additional compensation based on the flight duration.

 

[kangarooflyer88]

Also, Qantas doesn't have business class on all flights, what happens when pilots get assigned economy on a 717 to HBA or similar?

Clearly you haven't flown enough on 717s and Q400s, there is a curtain at the rear of the plane hiding a lie flat seat for pilots dead heading there!

 

[Seat0B]

First they can provide you with an appropriate refund of the fare difference. One thing that is unclear interpreting that language is how do they calculate that fare difference? Are they comparing a red e-deal price versus the premium cabin fare you paid for? Or are they looking at a Flex economy versus the Premium fare you paid? Also when are they making that fare difference calculation? If anything it should be at the time you made the booking on a revenue ticket since had you known business wouldn't be available for you, chances are you would have selected another fare.

I can assure you from many unfortunate experiences over the years that they only refund the difference compared to the highest possible Y fare on the day of downgrade. Seriously, sometimes I have been refunded amounts like $37 for copping a downgrade to Y from J on CBR-MEL, when the actual difference at the time I purchased the J fare compared to the cheapest economy (which I would pick if forced to go Y) was several hundred dollars. Once, my refund was $11.80.

And you have to spend considerable time and effort to even get that - firstly, you have to apply for the refund. Surely this should just be automatic - they downgraded you, they know what you paid, why should you have to apply at all? - refund should just be automatic. And then after you apply, they make you wait. I am still waiting for a refund and/or ORC for an involuntary downgrade SYD-CBR from an international connecting leg flown in February 2023, which I applied for in March 2023. As there is such an insignificant amount of money at stake, I am letting it take its own time so I know how long they take to deal with it. Looks like it is at least 6 months....

 

[Seat0B]

But is that how refunds are calculated?

Dont qantas just look at the price today ie the most expensive, and say "youre refund is $30, wait 12 weeks, bad luck even though your business class cost $8000

Yes this is EXACTLY what they say.

Still I think it is good advice from @drron to take a screen shot and start arguing the toss. It's pretty hard to argue when you don't have the facts/costs to hand.

 

[SOPOOR]

I can assure you from many unfortunate experiences over the years that they only refund the difference compared to the highest possible Y fare on the day of downgrade. Seriously, sometimes I have been refunded amounts like $37 for copping a downgrade to Y from J on CBR-MEL, when the actual difference at the time I purchased the J fare compared to the cheapest economy (which I would pick if forced to go Y) was several hundred dollars. Once, my refund was $11.80.

And you have to spend considerable time and effort to even get that - firstly, you have to apply for the refund. Surely this should just be automatic - they downgraded you, they know what you paid, why should you have to apply at all? - refund should just be automatic. And then after you apply, they make you wait. I am still waiting for a refund and/or ORC for an involuntary downgrade SYD-CBR from an international connecting leg flown in February 2023, which I applied for in March 2023. As there is such an insignificant amount of money at stake, I am letting it take its own time so I know how long they take to deal with it. Looks like it is at least 6 months....

Its such a huge huge pity that people dont or unable to do a chargeback by credit card.
I would have so much pleasure doing a chargeback and requesting a full refund.
Make them do the running around for their mistake

Years ago i did it with a small business who stuffed me around from start to end about everything
Submitted a chargeback
Was only hoping for 10-20%, end up getting back 50%

 

[Austman]

All the above talk about fare difference refunds doesn't really apply in the OP's situation.

The OP used points to upgrade from Y to J.

I can understand that, if J pax then need be downgraded to Y, choosing pax who used a points upgrade would at least solve the issue of a fare difference refund. They'll get their points back and travel in their originally booked class.

That at least seems reasonably fair. Except of course that the originally booked Y seats might now be gone. So some sort of further compensation should be in order.

Leaving the downgrade to when the pax is actually seated on the plane seems to me to be the issue. It should have all been done, or at least controlled in some way, before boarding.

I don't think anyone really knows for sure why it had to be done so late.

At least pax that didn't have lounge access, who used their points to upgrade would have had it. And extra check-in luggage allowance.

 

[Seat0B]

That fact that it is a different department that handles it - and it is a tried and trusted process. You simply email them the details of the original PNR and the fact that you were involuntarily re-routed / downgraded / whatever and they will process it.

Oh in the good old days they did. But not now.

On 3 March, requested ORC, relevant DSC, relevant FF points and fare difference refund for an involuntary downgrade.




On 4 April, they responded asking for a boarding pass to prove I took the flight... Total BS as the flights show in my FF activity and they make it all but impossible to actually get a boarding pass these days, but anyway, I sent off the boarding pass...



Crickets since, despite a hastener in late May.....

 

[RichardMEL]

I want to take a slightly different tack here because @Pushka's experience, and now the unfortunate 78 year old (ironically on the same city pair) within a short period of time makes me wonder about both how rare this situation is (and let's face it, it should be VERY rare) and the implication about overall pilot staffing issues.

IMO these situations were all last minute required travel to cover operating other flights. Clearly QF likely would have sorted out other options if the situation were known potentially even 4+ hours ahead (I'm trying to cover pilot duty time limits of the travel AND the operation of the actual flight included) with that.

To me, it's a bit like someone chucks a sickie and their shift needs to be covered and they only let you know at the last minute. No I'm not saying it's an actual sickie, but in both situations pilot(s) became unavailable at short notice for required services and they needed to be covered. Now, obviously it's not clear what sort of flights were being covered - pilots going to MEL could basically cover most fleet types potentially, while it's likely a little more limited for the pilot going to ADL. Where i'm going with this is that we know there was at some point a known issue with 787 tech crew in the recent past (and may still be) - now, who knows if the two that replaced @Pushka were to operate a 787 (maybe JQ?). I know they were younger, but that doesn't preclude FO's potentially. Of course there's no real way to know and I'm just bringing up the 787 as a situation we have heard about being an issue.

We know in SO MANY industries in Australia, but generally around the world, there are staffing issues for any number of issues... so if these last minute issues aren't simply due to people being sick (maybe tested for Covid prior to duty for example?) and unavailable to fly with near zero notice, then is there another issue at play - and if so, could it lead to an increased incidence of these really unfortunate situations?

In theory - to me at least - the requirement to take already confirmed seats (in any class, but specially premium) for last minute business requirements should be REALLY rare. IMO most crew scheduling issues SHOULD be known in advance (ie crews unavailable to fly) and be managed.

So, I wonder, is there an underlying issue (or issues) causing more situations like this, or are these two documented and bad experiences in a short period of time a really unfortunate coincidence but far more rare. I know only QF knows for sure, but I still wonder

 

[N860CR]

IMO most crew scheduling issues SHOULD be known in advance (ie crews unavailable to fly) and be managed.

Crew scheduling is dynamic and changes at a seconds notice. A broken aeroplane in Cairns can cause delays in Hobart. Airline day of ops is an extremely complex business, especially for an airline the size of qantas. The goal of crew schedulers and ops controllers is to get aeroplanes away ontime at any cost. Knocking a frequent flyer upgrade back to economy is small fries in the scheme of things.

 

[RooFlyer]

To me, it's a bit like someone chucks a sickie and their shift needs to be covered and they only let you know at the last minute. No I'm not saying it's an actual sickie, but in both situations pilot(s) became unavailable at short notice for required services and they needed to be covered. Now, obviously it's not clear what sort of flights were being covered

The other interesting factor is that they were in the Lounge for maybe 60+ mins before boarding the flight they eventually took - in the lounge the same time as the Pushkas. Yet they were late for the flight they eventually took. So, the scenario put somewhere well above - I think it may have been by Madrooster - was that they were destined for somewhere else, but at about the time of boarding Pushka's flight, they were told - no you have to be on that flight because of whatever.

As they said, Pushka's experience wouldn't have been such a big thing except for the way they were downgraded and the chap on the radio may not have gotten to air except that its Qantas pile-on time. I reckon bumping for staff (mandated by EBAs) happens quite a bit. As others have said, if its explained courteously that a pilot needs your seat as part of duty, and its a short flight, most of us would go down the back without much of a quibble (until you realise what an effort you have to go to to get compo, and then see the tenor of the compo!).

 

[Jean Prouvaire]

This is why I'm wondering what the EBA actually says if duty travel pilots must be assigned economy, even though they're entitled to business class normally.

I'm not industrial relations expert, but to my knowledge EBAs are filed with the Fair Work Commission and available to the public. I googled what seem to be the approved 2020 Qantas pilot long haul and short haul EBAs. I haven't actually read them (because I'm not that invested in this thread), but doing a quick search on "business class" reveals various clauses that seem to be relevant.

For example, here's the long haul EBA's clause 31.4: Standard of duty travel (F/O and S/O = First Officer and Second Officer respectively):



And here's a similar short haul EBA clause 48 Duty travel:


Business class travel is also mentioned in other clauses of both agreements.

I've attached the two EBAs as PDFs to this message so people can peruse them at their own leisure, should they so desire.

 

[N860CR]

Same is also in the EBA for QantasLink (eastern and sunstate airlines). Worth taking a look at the salaries and other conditions as well. We certainly owe the regional crews a big thank you after each flight. I don’t know how they afford to live to be honest (especially in Sydney). A little junket in business class once in a while seems like a small pleasantry.

 

[NM]

I want to take a slightly different tack here because @Pushka's experience, and now the unfortunate 78 year old (ironically on the same city pair) within a short period of time makes me wonder about both how rare this situation is (and let's face it, it should be VERY rare) and the implication about overall pilot staffing issues.

Not sure how rare this situation is. Another example was my son traveling on a FF classic reward booked as U (business class) BNE-SYD-MEL. There was no U available on a direct BNE-MEL flight that day and I wanted to treat him to business class so booked the indirect routing. He arrived into SYD for the transit and was told at the lounge that he was downgraded to economy for the SYD-MEL sector. He accepted the change without making a fuss or complaint, though was understandably disappointed. This was December 2022.

As the flights were booked by me using my QFF points, I contacted QFF and received the usual "operational reasons" and was told that because it was booked as a single "flight" the cost in points would have been the same if originally booked as U+X combination so no points refund due. I made it clear that this was not acceptable and if I had known he was not going to be in business class for both sectors than I would have booked as an economy class awards all the way. So I explained that I felt I was due a refund of at least the difference between U and X award for the SYD-MEL sector and that is what was eventually provided.

Again, different to @Pushka experience in that he was told of his downgrade at the lounge and not by being removed from the aircraft and then returning with Y boarding passes.

We have also had U fares moved to a different flight. Received message that the flight has been cancelled and moved to an earlier flight, only to find the flight was not actually cancelled and the J cabin departed full. So it seems if they think they can sell the J seats for cash they will move U ticket holders to another flight where seats have not been sold. I guess it was possible they needed our seats for pilot duty travel and had enough lead time to rebook us, and I would have been ok with that if informed at the time. But to tell us the flight is cancelled and we have been re-booked (via the dreaded SMS) when the flight was not in fact cancelled is dishonest.

Mrs NM and I are on U classic award flights in October. Hopefully no last minute requirements for pilots on duty flights for our flights.

 

[RichardMEL]

Well, given the story of the 78 year old vet who was apparently on a commercial J fare, it's not just U, though you'd imagine when trying to decide to downgrade status, fare, etc would all come into it. (though that one still puzzles, as surely there was a single pax to downgrade ahead of one half of a couple - but I digress).

I'm flying in U tomorrow so.....

 

[NM]

Well, given the story of the 78 year old vet who was apparently on a commercial J fare, it's not just U, though you'd imagine when trying to decide to downgrade status, fare, etc would all come into it. (though that one still puzzles, as surely there was a single pax to downgrade ahead of one half of a couple - but I digress).

I'm flying in U tomorrow so.....

Yep. there will be a pecking order that includes various weightings on fare type, commercial or award, FF status, and what has been refereed to as a Customer Value rating (based partly on past revenue received). In my son's case, he would have been right at the bottom of the pecking order, being on an award and having no status.

All the best for tomorrow.

 

[N860CR]

Well, given the story of the 78 year old vet who was apparently on a commercial J fare, it's not just U, though you'd imagine when trying to decide to downgrade status, fare, etc would all come into it. (though that one still puzzles, as surely there was a single pax to downgrade ahead of one half of a couple - but I digress).

I'm flying in U tomorrow so.....

Apparently being the key word. It doesn’t quite add up.

 

[Flyfrequently]

Yes they have been addressed. Please read all the posts on this thread.
TL;DR no they do not have to be in uniform
Yes they are allowed in the lounge.

And they can be J* pilots as per my nephew in earlier post.
Also, they do have a Code of Conduct to comply with, as do the family members who access staff travel ( my brother / his Dad from FNQ had to get a halfway decent shirt )

 

[Must...Fly!]

Same is also in the EBA for QantasLink (eastern and sunstate airlines). Worth taking a look at the salaries and other conditions as well. We certainly owe the regional crews a big thank you after each flight. I don’t know how they afford to live to be honest (especially in Sydney). A little junket in business class once in a while seems like a small pleasantry.

Indeed

So the question is in @Pushka case, let's assume the same happened but the compensation was a refund of the points used to upgrade, an immediate 20,000 points and a $500 voucher - would the issue still been as significant?

No, of course not.

This is Qantas being Qantas plain and simple. It's cases like this that force my mind in believing that legislated compensation regimes should be a thing here. If the private industry won't fix it for customers then let the government fix it for them. If they can/care (but that's a whole other thread/topic at the moment...)