Downgraded from Business Class on Qantas due to "tech crew" [pilot] Travel Requirements

[N860CR]

That's not how it works, money does not solve the problem.

You (and many others) are searching for complex solutions to a simple problem - compensate passengers appropriately and accordingly for last minute operational necessities, and this thread, and all the bad press from the Vietnam veteran story, simply doesn't exist.

Public care factor would be zero when the story ends with "the passenger was given the choice of travelling in economy or in business on the next available flight, a full refund and $500 cash for the inconvenience"

I'm sure Qantas wouldn't like the above but they have had their chances. I am now fully behind legislated compensation in Australia.

Articles like this that attack the worker are fueling the problem. Staff have already been cut to the bone. There’s no surprise that EBA negotiations are taking place right now. I wouldn’t be surprised if qantas leaked the story themselves.

 

[Pushka]

That's not how it works, money does not solve the problem.

You (and many others) are searching for complex solutions to a simple problem - compensate passengers appropriately and accordingly for last minute operational necessities, and this thread, and all the bad press from the Vietnam veteran story, simply doesn't exist.

Public care factor would be zero when the story ends with "the passenger was given the choice of travelling in economy or in business on the next available flight, a full refund and $500 cash for the inconvenience"

I'm sure Qantas wouldn't like the above but they have had their chances. I am now fully behind legislated compensation in Australia.

Taking people off the plane well after it's supposed to have left, after plenty of opportunities to deal with it pre boarding, and threads like this will always exist.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Taking people off the plane well after it's supposed to have left, after plenty of opportunities to deal with it pre boarding, and threads like this will always exist.

That’s partially the problem of on-line check-in. The airline has little idea whether everyone will turn up. At least with airport checkin they would know, 30 minutes before departure.

In this case they wouldn’t have known until 10 minutes before, when the gate closes. Then you have ten minutes to decide who has to be moved Calling for volunteers after everyone is seated is not something we do in australia.

Going back to counter check-in would also be problematic. But perhaps online checkin could be limited to open just three hours before a flight? Might give a fraction more certainty.

 

[jb747]

I know my opinion is irrelevant but I'd treat and respect the EBA more seriously if it wasn't for highest class available on the flight. So it's possible not only to displace business class passengers but first class passengers too.

A situation which is applicable to a tiny proportion of pilots. Call-outs that involved an international paxing sector were tiny in number, and these days your scenario is only applicable to the 380. In any event it’s not up to you to ‘respect’ the EBA. If the company wants to buy out that clause in the EBA, I’m sure they could come up with an offer to do so, but the reality is that those seats have been paid for by some form of change to work conditions. And having given something up for access to the seat, you can’t simply withdraw them because you feel like it.

For domestic flights it's irrelevant where a pilot sits, for international flights economy/premium economy is more than fine coupled with crew rest or crew sleeping quarters if there is one.

It’s irrelevant to you. But the these paxing legs are counted as duty time by CASA, and what you can do for the rest of the day is affected by them.

For downgrades Qantas and many airlines have it all wrong.

Perhaps there should be zero upgrades until done at the gate.

Airlines need to stop overselling. If they don't they need to make this practice illegal.

And it won’t ever stop until they have a way of sorting out the full fare no shows. Or the business people who buy refundable tickets for multiple flights, whilst knowing they’ll only be on one.

How do airlines operating economy only handle fatigue management?

They generally don’t have hugely long days, or they operate under rules that are not terribly considerate of fatigue.

What if the Qantas pilots were needed in Port Macquarie or Coffs Harbour? Mildura? They would have sat in economy on the Dash-8 right?

Different crew group, contract, and company. And they still sit in the best class available.

There is a much much simpler solution. How much does a pilot earn a year? $200K? $400K? Add more pilots to the roster and have pilots in each major Australian city on standby. So if pilot needed in MEL they have a pilot in MEL on standby and no need for someone to be called in from ADL.

How do you fund this initiative? Out of the executive pool of salaries. Way overpaid for doing a very simple job and no idea how to run an airline anyway.

Where standby is done fully, it absorbs around 15-20% of the pilot group on any given day. It’s sufficiently expensive that mostly there are no standby crews. There are no short haul standby pilots. Crewing have to find them wherever they can on the day (and they may not be successful). So, work out the cost of that, and then wonder where you’ll get the people from.

 

[Quickstatus]

The best way to fix the multiple fullfare ticket purchases is to allow the first one as a confirmed booking and subsequent ticket purchases can only be on a "standby" basis. The full fare, time of purchase, and maybe status adjusts the relative standby position using some algorithm

Seat upgrades can easily be done at the gate - against a published upgrade list but which is secondary to the standby list because the passenger requesting an upgrade already has a seat. Similarly an algorithm of sorts is used to determine the relative position in the upgrade list.

IT will of course need to be significantly upgraded so that both lists are visible to customers online in the app and also at the gate.

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QF downgrade power is really for its convenience so any "downgraded policy" should involve a financial cost to the airline but also a financial benefit to the downgraded passenger.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

The best way to fix the multiple fullfare ticket purchases is to allow the first one as a confirmed booking and subsequent ticket purchases can only be on a "standby" basis. The full fare, time of purchase, and maybe status adjusts the relative standby position using some algorithm

Seat upgrades can easily be done at the gate - against a published upgrade list but which is secondary to the standby list because the passenger requesting an upgrade already has a seat. Similarly an algorithm of sorts is used to determine the relative position in the upgrade list.

IT will of course need to be significantly upgraded so that both lists are visible to customers online in the app and also at the gate.

---

QF downgrade power is really for its convenience so any "downgraded policy" should involve a financial cost to the airline but also a financial benefit to the downgraded passenger.

Airlines already have systems in place to prevent multiple or duplicate bookings. This particularly applies to impossible bookings where flight times are too close together.

The main problem is that the passenger may have a flight booked on Qantas but also on Virgin and there is nothing you can do about that.

Upgrading at the gate would be another option but then passengers with status may not like having to wait until the last minute.

 

[Quickstatus]

problem

There is no perfect solution
A lot of solutions while simple on the face of it are actually made difficult because of Status-ed passengers - priority boarding is a perfect example - the airlines has to hold a lane open right up till close just waiting for a Status-ed passenger to get out of the lounge.

I can't see the problem with a Status-ed passenger waiting till the last minute. The process can actually be started after once boarding commences. And in fact I would say upgrades and standby should only be done at the gate not at the lounge to maximise efficiency of the process. This would easily eliminate the QF VA issue. The passenger should pick one and not hold up other passengers.

In the final analysis, do airlines want to operate efficiently, transparently and fairly or do they want to be beholden to certain passengers.
I believe that this is one reason why Qantas lost sight of its overall mission.

 

[Flashback]

Airlines already have systems in place to prevent multiple or duplicate bookings. This particularly applies to impossible bookings where flight times are too close together.

The main problem is that the passenger may have a flight booked on Qantas but also on Virgin and there is nothing you can do about that.

Upgrading at the gate would be another option but then passengers with status may not like having to wait until the last minute.

Indeed, I had a PER-SYD cancelled on me once because there was another Flashback on the flight. Completely different DOB though..... so epic fail there.

 

[Seat0B]

Or the business people who buy refundable tickets for multiple flights, whilst knowing they’ll only be on one.

Occasionally Guilty as Charged.

I would usually book a seat on the flight I thought I would catch and a back up seat on the last flight of the day to my destination. Sometimes you just do not know how long your meetings or other business activities are going to go.

I personally always used to try to get a flight home in the mid afternoon if at all possible, to avoid the usually delayed and always congested later evening flights. Sometimes I would finish earlier than planned, and very often QF would make if difficult to change to an earlier flight even when I was standing at the counter with a J ticket and as WP or even a P1 as I used to be - and I would bet an arm and a leg that those flights were not full. Equally, sometimes my day would turn pear shaped and I would have to take a much later flight than planned - if I could get a seat that is. On more than one occasion I had to overnight because there were no seats on later flights. So over time I learnt to book a seat on that flight JIC. I figured that if I managed to fly earlier, then they can always sell the seat I'm not using to some other poor business person whose day went to custard and would otherwise have to overnight, or surprise someone for good PR with an upgrade.

This problem was much less of an issue in 2019, when I last did a lot of travel for business, with the fly forward policy, but it did not stop me booking the back up seat on the last flight when I definitely had to be home that night without the flexibility to overnight.

 

[SOPOOR]

Putting some context

Does any other first world developed country's premier airline have such disgusting service levels????

I could guess the answer

 

[encryptededdy]

Does any other first world developed country's premier airline have such disgusting service levels????

Honestly? Yes.

For instance, this just showed up on my newsfeed re. Air Canada today https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/air-canada-booted-passengers-vomit-filled-seats-1.6957790

Of course, this doesn't excuse Qantas not stepping up their game.

 

[JohnK]

That's not how it works, money does not solve the problem.

You (and many others) are searching for complex solutions to a simple problem - compensate passengers appropriately and accordingly for last minute operational necessities, and this thread, and all the bad press from the Vietnam veteran story, simply doesn't exist.

Sure that's the simple answer but it's quite obvious Qantas does not care.

I mean any company that thinks a discount business class airfare purchased ~350 days ago is the same value as a full economy last minute walk-up airfare to sit down the back in a middle seat can not be trusted to make any logical decisions.

 

[TheRealTMA]

Putting some context

Does any other first world developed country's premier airline have such disgusting service levels????

I could guess the answer

BA have a similar reputation.

Post automatically merged: Sep 7, 2023

Honestly? Yes.

For instance, this just showed up on my newsfeed re. Air Canada today https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/air-canada-booted-passengers-vomit-filled-seats-1.6957790

Of course, this doesn't excuse Qantas not stepping up their game.

No no. Don’t click the link!

 

[N860CR]

Does any other first world developed country's premier airline have such disgusting service levels????

Basically anything in North America. Although in fairness, this probably wouldn’t happen there as the upgrade wouldn’t have cleared until at the gate.

 

[Rabs97]

BA have a similar reputation.

BA were Skytrax’s “Airline of the Year” every year from 1994-2007 bar one. Now they rate lower than QF on the rankings.

It is interesting to note that although QF dropped to 17th on that list that’s still 17th in the world out of a lot of other competitors, they rank higher than such competitors like Air NZ, Thai, MH, LH, VS or GA. The way they’ve been portrayed in the media you’d think they’re Air Koryo.

Does any other first world developed country's premier airline have such disgusting service levels????

On the same Skytrax list only Swiss, Iberia and Air France ranked higher than QF in that category.

 

[RooFlyer]

On the same Skytrax list only Swiss, Iberia and Air France ranked higher than QF in that category.

So, what does it tell you?

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Sure that's the simple answer but it's quite obvious Qantas does not care.

I mean any company that thinks a discount business class airfare purchased ~350 days ago is the same value as a full economy last minute walk-up airfare to sit down the back in a middle seat can not be trusted to make any logical decisions.

It’s simply an outcome of IRROPS management. In the day of departure a full Y seat is likely going to be available, so they put you in that.

The problem is that there is no follow up.

It works both ways though. If you had an economy ticket and experience delays you can actually be ‘upgraded’, and get bonus points and SCs.

I had an award seat converted to full J by QF… netting me 45SCs for a flight that would otherwise have got me none.

Perhaps downgrades should be flagged better, and be processed manually. I think AA actually publishes their criteria, which is a downgrade is assessed against the lowest fare paid on that flight for the day. So if someone paid $50, your downgrade is based on the difference.

 

[Blacksheep]

I have only flown premium class 3 times in 4 years, and regardless of point vs cash, if I got downgraded, i at a MINIMUM would except the different in fare costs back
and if I got a premium seat thats seat was broken, or entertainemtn not working, i would expect at a minimum 50% refund

I still cannot believe that this sort of behaviour is remotely acceptable.

my parents years ago, when they got to the airport, their flight was cancelled, and due to technical difficulties, the only flight available was from a 1 hour by plane away airport, airline paid for hotels, meals, transport and everything, exceptional service

guess the airline? no it wasnt Singapore, it was JETSTAR

ive flown jetstar maybe twice to 3 times a year and the service has been exceptional

You must have got that unicorn, I know a CSM for Jetstar, they don't even fly Jetstar.

 

[Blacksheep]

When living in Europe I often heard offers of compensation for oversold flights being offered - and took up several (800 Euro to take a next day flight CPH-BKK was an instant yes for me). Not sure I've ever heard it offered in Australia. I guess they just take the forceable option instead.

Years ago was travelling with my mum on Cathay. We took the offer after x amount of cash was offered per pax, it was cold hard cash not a transfer. But this was about 30 years ago. They offered to put us up in a hotel as well but my mum didn't bother as we went home and came back the next day. Can't remember if we got paid for taxi or my brother picked us up. We did get free international phone call to tell our relatives we were delayed and you could imagine how much it would have cost in those dark ages

 

[RichardMEL]

Another day another "couple split up and one downgraded" story for QF:

'They made up a story': Qantas continues to frustrate consumers

Qantas has again left customers frustrated after an elderly couple celebrating a birthday were made to sit separately due to the carrier overbooking the flight. Travel agent and daughter of the elderly couple, Maree Sinclair, says her parents had booked business class months ago and when they...

www.3aw.com.au

I would say this. One, the "travel agent" daughter of the victims has it wrong - she claimed QF lied about how they chose people to bump down and alleged it was the check in agent that decided that an "older couple" wouldn't create much fuss. They were told it was the system working on status (and we here on AFF know this is almost certainly the case).

That aside, this is yet another poor story. Who knows if flight was oversold, or what, but end result is another really POOR handling by QF. The route is uncertain as the person being interviewed never specified. However given the couple were allegedly told they would be downgraded to PE, I'm going to guess SIN. However, there was only J and Y (so I assume A330). Again the person called it a direct lie. I am not so sure - sometimes MEL-SIN (I am assuming flight was out of MEL) is on a 787 which has W, but also has 330's so it may have just been a poor assumption on the QF stffers end rather than a direct lie, but of course there's just not enough information.

That aside, why split up a couple (and while age should have nothing to do with it, of course you think an older pax who paid for J shouldn't have to cop it). Again though, assuming the pax were on same booking as a couple and in paid J then why split them like that (as with the vet)? It kind of doesn't make sense. Now maybe all the solo pax had status, but still... I don't know. again it's anecdotal "evidence' of a interview on the radio, but still.. seems fishy, or perhaps more QF running true to form.

What's worse is this was an international service it seems. Now, even if it was to NZ (but doesn't sound like it was), it's a much bigger inconvenience being put into Y than a shorter domestic hop (not that either is really acceptable mind you).

My gut feeling is that this wasn't a case of overselling (I didn't think QF oversold F or J as a matter of practice?) but there may have been a aircraft swap. Not enough information to know though.

Supposedly offered $100 and some proportion of fare refund (I think she said 75%? unsure on that).

QF just keeps seeming to kick own goals.