Downgraded from Business Class on Qantas due to "tech crew" [pilot] Travel Requirements

[bcworld]

All the above talk about fare difference refunds doesn't really apply in the OP's situation.

The OP used points to upgrade from Y to J.

In my experience, there is still no refund in that circumstance, unless you ask for one. I was downgraded on an SFO-MEL J redemption and stuck on UA SFO-SYD-MEL in Y. As well as the points there was a significant difference in surcharges. There was no refund unless I filled out forms requesting one, and wasted my time doing the maths to correct their dodgy calculations.

 

[SeatBackForward]

'Appalling': Veteran downgraded from Business Class for airline employee on Qantas flight​

A 78-year-old Vietnam war veteran being downgraded from Business Class to Economy on Qantas so an airline employee could sit in his seat is “appalling stuff,” according to The Australian’s Sophie Elsworth.

Link

 

[Quickstatus]

What's appalling is the 5000 points offer, not the fact that someone was downgraded.
Qantas should stop giving away meaningless points. It should compensate the passenger by making it free - full cash refund, with no requirement to ring up and chase the refund - it happens automatically.

 

[SOPOOR]

What's appalling is the 5000 points offer, not the fact that someone was downgraded.
Qantas should stop giving away meaningless points. It should compensate the passenger by making it free - full cash refund, with no requirement to ring up and chase the refund - it happens automatically.

Exactly..

How many points is a toaster these days?

 

[Quickstatus]

How many points is a toaster these days?

You need a few more downgrades to afford a toaster. 2 and a bit downgrades to get this toaster

Maybe a replacement electric toothbrush head...... or a monkey plush toy

 

[JohnK]

And pilots are the only reason customers can pay to fly.

It's a cyclical relationship, but for me this all goes back to the way Qantas approaches service issues and recovery not the incident itself.

For instance the approach to downgrade compensation being difference between paid J and flex Y fare is absolutely ludicrous and should be changed.

I don't disagree with you but aircraft are not going to come crashing down if a pilot sits in economy on an ADL-MEL sector. I love Qantas but nothing special about Qantas pilots over Virgin or any other carrier where pilots do not have an EBA.

I know my opinion is irrelevant but I'd treat and respect the EBA more seriously if it wasn't for highest class available on the flight. So it's possible not only to displace business class passengers but first class passengers too. For domestic flights it's irrelevant where a pilot sits, for international flights economy/premium economy is more than fine coupled with crew rest or crew sleeping quarters if there is one.

For downgrades Qantas and many airlines have it all wrong.

If staying on same flight and downgraded then full refund plus compensation. That a passenger can be out of pocket for a downgrade is at best ludicrous. It is taking the piss.

Where they offer you same seat on a different day then full compensation as well as partial refund.

Airlines need to stop overselling. If they don't they need to make this practice illegal.

 

[elanshin]

The other situation i believe which is similar to just a normal overbooked flight is to ask the cabin for volunteers (with compensation). It may be that for the right price someone will accept a downgrade or later flight.

This then means you don't have a "randomly" selected pax bumped, the person choosing to be bumped has accepted a deal and hopefully everyone can be happy.

Slightly OT, but while claiming my ORC for downgrade and route change the agent agreed to do it, then came back afterwards and made it sound like they weren't supposed to do it and are doing me a favour because they had "refunded me already", so I "should be getting the economy credits". I just politely said thanks and hung up as the ORC was already processed.

 

[Airbumps]

The other situation i believe which is similar to just a normal overbooked flight is to ask the cabin for volunteers (with compensation). It may be that for the right price someone will accept a downgrade or later flight.

This then means you don't have a "randomly" selected pax bumped, the person choosing to be bumped has accepted a deal and hopefully everyone can be happy.

When living in Europe I often heard offers of compensation for oversold flights being offered - and took up several (800 Euro to take a next day flight CPH-BKK was an instant yes for me). Not sure I've ever heard it offered in Australia. I guess they just take the forceable option instead.

 

[SOPOOR]

You need a few more downgrades to afford a toaster. 2 and a bit downgrades to get this toaster

Maybe a replacement electric toothbrush head...... or a monkey plush toy

Soooo... that means according to their refund/credit policy, its fair to offer 5000 points to upgrade me from economy to business,

How many mins before security escort me out

 

[Rabs97]

I don't disagree with you but aircraft are not going to come crashing down if a pilot sits in economy on an ADL-MEL sector.

The topic of fatigue management in pilots is a complex topic that takes many variables from different sources, usually after scientific studies on performance. That pilot could potentially have been operating flights back of the clock, have come off reduced rest prior to that duty etc. What if the flight had to RTB and then they spend double the amount of time in the seat? If it’s OK ADL-MEL then why not ADL-PER? Or eventually ADL-AKL? These provisions are in the EBA for a reason.

The passenger should have been compensated the difference between J and Y of course, but downgrading is very common in the industry. Aircraft types swapped, downgraded, late connections, crew repositioning etc. This isn’t the first time this has happened, let alone the first time this week. The tabloid media are jumping on any negative anti QF story at the moment so it would be blown out of proportion.

I also find it a bit disrespectful the media is referring to the age of the employee as “younger” or a “young pilot” as some type of justification for why they should’ve given up their seat to the passenger. Would it have been alright had it been an older pilot that had displaced the passenger?

 

[Pushka]

I also find it a bit disrespectful the media is referring to the age of the employee as “younger” or a “young pilot” as some type of justification for why they should’ve given up their seat to the passenger. Would it have been alright had it been an older pilot that had displaced the passenger?

Isn't it simply descriptive of the people involved? It is what it is.

 

[encryptededdy]

Isn't it simply descriptive of the people involved? It is what it is.

IMO no, the choice of words is deliberate.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

I don't disagree with you but aircraft are not going to come crashing down if a pilot sits in economy on an ADL-MEL sector. I love Qantas but nothing special about Qantas pilots over Virgin or any other carrier where pilots do not have an EBA.

I know my opinion is irrelevant but I'd treat and respect the EBA more seriously if it wasn't for highest class available on the flight. So it's possible not only to displace business class passengers but first class passengers too. For domestic flights it's irrelevant where a pilot sits, for international flights economy/premium economy is more than fine coupled with crew rest or crew sleeping quarters if there is one.

For downgrades Qantas and many airlines have it all wrong.

If staying on same flight and downgraded then full refund plus compensation. That a passenger can be out of pocket for a downgrade is at best ludicrous. It is taking the piss.

Where they offer you same seat on a different day then full compensation as well as partial refund.

Airlines need to stop overselling. If they don't they need to make this practice illegal.

I’ve sat next to pilots on both VA and QF domestic, SYD-MEL and v.v.

Most of the flight they were reading company material on their ipads.

They pretty much got an undisturbed flight… no one needing to get up and get passed them to go to the WC, no interruptions for the meal or beverage service, no delays getting on or off the aircraft, no standing in a queue to use the WC if they needed to go, space to read quietly without the seat in front being reclined into them, space in the overhead for their bags.

Pretty much everything a paying passenger values in a separate, more relaxed cabin.

If they were needing to fly to Singapore to be on duty, then first class is appropriate, should they want to rest or sleep.

 

[Himeno]

When living in Europe I often heard offers of compensation for oversold flights being offered - and took up several (800 Euro to take a next day flight CPH-BKK was an instant yes for me). Not sure I've ever heard it offered in Australia. I guess they just take the forceable option instead.

I know people in the US who book flights likely to be oversold on purpose so that they can get the compensation offers to be bumped.

 

[JohnK]

Are you implying that they should be given a full refund of the total fare paid (given a free flight) and then more compensation on top of this?
Even EU regulations aren't that generous.

Yes, absolutely. If you downgrade a passenger for any reason then refund their fare + compensation. See how often airlines create overselling situations. I can assure you that it won't be many other than pilot essential travel.

Do not inconvenience the customer under any circumstances. Should be part of onboarding and yearly refresher training.

 

[JohnK]

The topic of fatigue management in pilots is a complex topic that takes many variables from different sources, usually after scientific studies on performance. That pilot could potentially have been operating flights back of the clock, have come off reduced rest prior to that duty etc. What if the flight had to RTB and then they spend double the amount of time in the seat? If it’s OK ADL-MEL then why not ADL-PER? Or eventually ADL-AKL? These provisions are in the EBA for a reason.

How do airlines operating economy only handle fatigue management?

What if the Qantas pilots were needed in Port Macquarie or Coffs Harbour? Mildura? They would have sat in economy on the Dash-8 right?

There is a much much simpler solution. How much does a pilot earn a year? $200K? $400K? Add more pilots to the roster and have pilots in each major Australian city on standby. So if pilot needed in MEL they have a pilot in MEL on standby and no need for someone to be called in from ADL.

How do you fund this initiative? Out of the executive pool of salaries. Way overpaid for doing a very simple job and no idea how to run an airline anyway.

 

[KSC]

What's appalling is the 5000 points offer, not the fact that someone was downgraded.
Qantas should stop giving away meaningless points. It should compensate the passenger by making it free - full cash refund, with no requirement to ring up and chase the refund - it happens automatically.

I got 5000 points for my luggage getting t-bagged in some puddles.

Seems to be the prescribed band-aid for all issue types regardless of severity.

 

[SOPOOR]

I got 5000 points for my luggage getting t-bagged in some puddles.

Seems to be the prescribed band-aid for all issue types regardless of severity.

Im sure policy will change if they changed joyces payout package to 5000 qantas points

 

[RichardMEL]

I know people in the US who book flights likely to be oversold on purpose so that they can get the compensation offers to be bumped.

Indeed. I have a mate who used to make an annual artform of it at Thanksgiving.... He racked up.. a ... lot.

Specially from America West (so you know how far back that goes).

 

[Must...Fly!]

There is a much much simpler solution. How much does a pilot earn a year? $200K? $400K? Add more pilots to the roster and have pilots in each major Australian city on standby. So if pilot needed in MEL they have a pilot in MEL on standby and no need for someone to be called in from ADL.

That's not how it works, money does not solve the problem.

You (and many others) are searching for complex solutions to a simple problem - compensate passengers appropriately and accordingly for last minute operational necessities, and this thread, and all the bad press from the Vietnam veteran story, simply doesn't exist.

Public care factor would be zero when the story ends with "the passenger was given the choice of travelling in economy or in business on the next available flight, a full refund and $500 cash for the inconvenience"

I'm sure Qantas wouldn't like the above but they have had their chances. I am now fully behind legislated compensation in Australia.