Downgraded from Business Class.

[grussellt]

Of course attacking the person behind the Red Roo account at any particular time would be completely inappropriate, but Red Roo the official representative on AFF is Qantas to all intents and purposes, and attacking them is no different to attacking Qantas the company.

It should be remembered that people have hearts and minds and should be treated appropriately. It should also be noted that Red Roo(s) have accumulated a lot of "likes."

 

[OATEK]

The continued attacks on Red Roo are unacceptable. <SNIP>

Isn't that the trouble though with an "Authorised Rep", they are neither one thing or the other. So it makes it hard to always discriminate between anti-QF statements, and anti-Red Roo (as a QF Rep) comments. We have seen where Red Roo in his/her various guises has made a big difference, and any active participant on AFF would know that.

In this case some of the comments from Red Roo on the thread were couched in the same terms as the replies to the Melbourne Forum, and the whole issue of downgrading/bumping seems to be deliberately clouded from view. As long as QF limit what their Rep can say, and how they can say it, then there is likely to be adverse comment that is really directed at QF, but is channelled through Red Roo.

As with many threads here, one or two persons get onto a theme and push it beyond the point where most of us might stop. But at the end of the day (haven't used that cliche for a while) this topic has hit a nerve, and however small the pool of AFFers might be in the scheme of things (that's another one), there is a feeling that this could not only happen to any of us, but is now more likely to in fact occur. But in saying that, I think that very few if any would wish Red Roo the rep to take any adverse comments "personnally", when in fact they seem on the whole to be directed at either their role or their organisation.

 

[medhead]

the offer to fly the next day doesn't equate to denied boarding. only if they were told that there were no seats left on the plane period would denied boarding requirements come into play.

while the links to fines for price fixing are not relevant in terms of the procedural aspects, it does make you wonder.

the airline is prepared to invest time and money in price fixing, and pays millions of dollars in fines on not just one occasion... but then drags its feet over a couple thousand dollars of compensation that the passenger should be rightfully paid. for an event that they say is extremely rare.

Red Roo's time, customer services' time, Flight Centre's time, the passengers' time. surely it gets to a point where you just weigh up what is worth fighting and what is worth paying?

which again brings me to the question... I wonder how this has been escalated from AFF. which departments have been made aware of this? has legal been copied in? has the department responsible for refunds been copied in? I have been asking for some time now for a brief outline of how refunds are calculated (which should include the more important element of how they are justified under the calculation).

has red roo passed on that request? has the department received it but decided not to action it? it's starting to not look so good if a department won't explain to passengers how they calculate refunds.

My contention, based on what was reported by the OP, is that they were initially told they can't get in this flight and would have to fly the next day. Subsequent discussion resulted in a voluntary downgrade, but there was a small window of time when they where told they can't take that flight. Full awareness of their rights at that time would have allowed a fully informed decision. (In making that statement I have been very careful not to say certain things but be assured I'm well aware of the things I haven't said)

As for freight price fixing presumably they invested that time and effort because the return exceeded the cost. In this case perhaps it is cheaper to expend staff time, a fixed cost, than it is to payout fair refunds/compensation.

 

[anna2103]

The continued attacks on Red Roo are unacceptable.
Personal attacks on any member are unacceptable and this should extend to Company Reps IMHO. He/she has helped out many members here in the past with their problems. The fact that Red Roo cannot give the answers that we are looking for regarding the downgrading of two non-members of the forum isn't an excuse to attack the company rep.

Quite frankly it wouldn't surprise me if QF decided to reconsider their continued presence on here and that would be a great pity.

Again can I stress that I think that from what we know so far the treatment of EmilyP's parents by the QF staff at LAX has been appalling and I sincerely hope that they get an outcome that's acceptable to them.
I just don't think this Forum is the appropriate place to get that outcome.

I respect your point of view, and agree that personal attacks are unacceptable. But isn't one of the reasons that we, as a travel community, join AFF is to share advice/info and help each other out, even if that means that we will sometimes be critical of a company.

 

[Pushka]

The continued attacks on Red Roo are unacceptable.
Personal attacks on any member are unacceptable and this should extend to Company Reps IMHO. He/she has helped out many members here in the past with their problems. The fact that Red Roo cannot give the answers that we are looking for regarding the downgrading of two non-members of the forum isn't an excuse to attack the company rep.

Quite frankly it wouldn't surprise me if QF decided to reconsider their continued presence on here and that would be a great pity.

Again can I stress that I think that from what we know so far the treatment of EmilyP's parents by the QF staff at LAX has been appalling and I sincerely hope that they get an outcome that's acceptable to them.
I just don't think this Forum is the appropriate place to get that outcome.

I agree with most of your post re personal attacks which are unacceptable.

I'm struggling with the last line because it doesn't seem that going through correct procedures, which is also what Emily's parents have done, has achieved diddly squat it seems.

 

[Baysider]

Isn't that the trouble though with an "Authorised Rep", they are neither one thing or the other. So it makes it hard to always discriminate between anti-QF statements, and anti-Red Roo (as a QF Rep) comments. We have seen where Red Roo in his/her various guises has made a big difference, and any active participant on AFF would know that.

I seriously doubt that any statements made here are "anti-Red Roo" or targeting the individual that uses the tag Red Roo. They are directed at the greater Qantas organisation.

 

[Baysider]

I'm struggling with the last line because it doesn't seem that going through correct procedures, which is also what Emily's parents have done, has achieved diddly squat it seems.

And I think we are all aware that if this issue hadn't been raised here they would have received about $700 each, less Flight Centre's cut for doing nothing at all.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

My contention, based on what was reported by the OP, is that they were initially told they can't get in this flight and would have to fly the next day. Subsequent discussion resulted in a voluntary downgrade, but there was a small window of time when they where told they can't take that flight. Full awareness of their rights at that time would have allowed a fully informed decision. (In making that statement I have been very careful not to say certain things but be assured I'm well aware of the things I haven't said)

.

i went back and checked, post #61 says only the passengers were told they had been downgraded and were to be accommodated in ecinomy class. no mention that there were no seats available in economy.

had there been no seats in any class, and it was likely the passengers were not going to fly, denied boarding procedures would have kicked in. volunteers would have been required to be called, and if sufficient seats were still not available, bump compensation and a statement of their rights would have been required.

 

[amaroo]

The continued attacks on Red Roo are unacceptable.
Personal attacks on any member are unacceptable and this should extend to Company Reps IMHO. He/she has helped out many members here in the past with their problems. The fact that Red Roo cannot give the answers that we are looking for regarding the downgrading of two non-members of the forum isn't an excuse to attack the company rep.

Agreed.

frankly it wouldn't surprise me if QF decided to reconsider their continued presence on here and that would be a great pity.

If you're going to engage with your customers... you have to take the good with the bad. Can't see any reason why QF would want to pull the plug - this thread has been pretty tame. IIRC there has been no MOD intervention other than posts praising members for restraint and tone of the discussion.

can I stress that I think that from what we know so far the treatment of EmilyP's parents by the QF staff at LAX has been appalling and I sincerely hope that they get an outcome that's acceptable to them.
I just don't think this Forum is the appropriate place to get that outcome.

The demands to shut down discussion and close the thread are puzzling

IMHO AFF/FT and others are the perfect place for highlighting legitimate service failures - businesses that treat customers with contempt deserve to be outed and have their failures exposed. It "should" draw the attention and focus of senior management to react, implement and improve customer outcomes.

QF should look at this thread with a positive attitude and take the feedback on board.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I don't think that EmilyP's parents are going to get any resolution through this forum.
QF have had ample opportunity to resolve the issue swiftly and publicly on here and have to all intents and purposes not done so.

I'm glad that it was reported to us and there have been numerous very helpful contributions by many including MEL_Traveller on consumer relations issues. I for one am much more educated about Airline Regulations than I was before and hopefully armed with this information I will be in a better position should the sky ever fall on my head and I'm asked to downgrade on any airline.

However the thread is going around in circles IMO, people are posting suggestions that were made hundreds of posts previously. People are posting the same suggestions, over and over again.
There is little of any value in that to any members of the forum.
I look forward to hearing any further updates from EmilyP regarding acceptable compensation for her parents.

 

[DC3]

.... and I look forward to QF doing the right thing regarding compensation to affected passengers.

 

[Princess Fiona]

I respect your point of view, and agree that personal attacks are unacceptable. But isn't one of the reasons that we, as a travel community, join AFF is to share advice/info and help each other out, even if that means that we will sometimes be critical of a company.

Absolutely agree but there is being critical of a company and there is being critical of an individual posting as a Rep of that company. They are two entirely separate things IMO

 

[DC3]

I respect your point of view, and agree that personal attacks are unacceptable. But isn't one of the reasons that we, as a travel community, join AFF is to share advice/info and help each other out, even if that means that we will sometimes be critical of a company.

I agree, Anna2103.

And RR as (figuratively) the mouthpiece of QF, will provide the "spin" accordingly. Some is good, some not so. I just wish that QF would get on with resolving the issue at hand. Then RR can come here with the good news. The inaction over the past 6 weeks is pretty poor.

 

[Princess Fiona]

And I think we are all aware that if this issue hadn't been raised here they would have received about $700 each, less Flight Centre's cut for doing nothing at all.

No, AFAIK they would have received $700 at LAX plus the eventual woeful calculated fare difference paid through FC.
In discussions with customer care they have been offered 50K FF points and a $500 voucher in addition to the FC calculated refund.

Raising it here may or may not have had anything to do with the second offer.

 

[UP4014]

Quite frankly it wouldn't surprise me if QF decided to reconsider their continued presence on here and that would be a great pity.

Then so be it. If a QF rep is only here for the glory during good announcements then that is of no interest to me.

When times (or the discussion) are good it's easy to to post here, the topic of this thread is how the hard bucks are earned. I want to how how they are continuously improving and this could have been a win for QF and a win for QF customers. But it has not been so cop it on the chin and fix it.

Matt

 

[nlagalle]

Dunno about that. Plenty evidence that the media is addicted to running negative stories about QF... add the interest this saga has already generated and you've got a juicy headline that would attract the attention of a few of those 10 million QFF members :idea:

From someone who works in the media, it wouldn't rate at the moment.. Plenty of bigger headlines around at the moment..

 

[MEL_Traveller]

From someone who works in the media, it wouldn't rate at the moment.. Plenty of bigger headlines around at the moment..

Airline sells your original seat to someone else and then charges you extra to give you a new seat in a lower class on the same flight? That's sounds like a fairly good consumer perspective. And pretty much what happens if we believe the refund table. (the 'extra' being the full economy fare compared to the cheapest economy fare you would have bought had you indented to fly economy at the outset)

 

[QF WP]

IIRC there has been no MOD intervention other than posts praising members for restraint and tone of the discussion.

Posts in this thread have been highly reported and a lot of Mods time has been spent looking at whether comments have breached the T&C's. thankfully, few posts have actually been changed - amazing considering the level of fervour shown by some.

The demands to shut down discussion and close the thread are puzzling

IMHO AFF/FT and others are the perfect place for highlighting legitimate service failures - businesses that treat customers with contempt deserve to be outed and have their failures exposed. It "should" draw the attention and focus of senior management to react, implement and improve customer outcomes.

QF should look at this thread with a positive attitude and take the feedback on board.

It's probably getting closer to that point where, as Princess Fiona commented, there is no futher news and only a rehash of the same arguments and clash of personalities. Those are the times where, in the absence of any further news, there is little benefit to leave threads open. For a closed thread, it can be re-opened by Mods or admin where contacted by the parties directly impacted by the issue (EmilyP on behalf of her parents, or Red Roo on behalf of QF).

My limited understanding of the relationship between airline, travel agent, consolidator and passenger doesn't allow me to comment further on just where certain contractural obligations lie. Thank you for the insight ozbeachbabe. We'd all love to know the inner workings of the entire refund process, however Privacy Act provisions deny Red Roo from being able to comment fully to us, in this (or any) particular case (as we do not have the rights).

We have to take people at their word until it can be proven otherwise. Some are quick to judge without full knowledge of facts - a failing of humanity and due process.

 

[RAM]

Good points and if the OP can confirm that FC is the block there might be good sense in that becoming a standalone thread so that FC can take some heat !

From experience together with what scant info Red Roo has posted such as:

$$ saying that the info posted by the two flyers' relative was misleading
$$ 'paid agent two weeks ago' BUT 'told couple this morning'

Knowing full well that normal wholesaler billing/processing cycle is monthly smacks of DELIBERATE attempt by Red Roo to mislead and deceive on this thread. Either or different "Red Roos" who've been 'managing this as full time paid social media operatives' (the reality) have slipped up.

Or perhaps just following the procedures manual on how to mitigate adverse publicity through non-specific diversions that cannot be substantiated. Of course that is not in Ch5.4.

While there was a stuff up there has been no fix of the root cause or public statement about proper scaled refund amount and passenger still waiting for a refund for whatever reason.

If you're disgusted by the treatment of Red Roo consider the treatment of the customer in this instance and lack of action to correct things. It's a robust forum and you don't see any bad language and in the world of the net pretty tame.

In this case on this forum Red Roo is the company and will have to take it as everyone has choices, Red Roo/QF included and if you choose to just give lip service to problems with no action then there are consequences down the track.

Matt

You may not know that the various people posting as Red Roo are full-time Q paid professional social media employees, on salaries much higher than many other Q workers (isn't google just sooo useful!). It is their job although I can see how you were possibly mistaken that they were unpaid amateurs.

Red Roo is actually a few people and can be some rather senior people at times.

To give the denied board discussion a small benefit of the doubt: Initially they were denied boarding with the offer to fly the next day, perhaps they're rights should have been explained at that time. That they were later accommodated in a lower class of travel doesn't really undo that initial situation.

BUT that little bit of finesse is completely undone by providing multiple links to freight price fixing fines that are completely and entirely and absolutely irrelevant to DOT denied board regulations.

I had to stop reading at that point as the rate of brain cell destruction became too great.

That is unfortunate as you don't seem to have read about the fine for not telling passengers their legal rights. A $90,000 fine of which $45,000 was suspended for 12 months on the condition that Q fully inform passengers of their rights. A point you yourself made and I totally agree with.

The other US DoT fines just point to a pattern of behaviour that the Q board continues to reign over.

 

[RAM]

the offer to fly the next day doesn't equate to denied boarding. only if they were told that there were no seats left on the plane period would denied boarding requirements come into play.

while the links to fines for price fixing are not relevant in terms of the procedural aspects, it does make you wonder.

the airline is prepared to invest time and money in price fixing, and pays millions of dollars in fines on not just one occasion... but then drags its feet over a couple thousand dollars of compensation that the passenger should be rightfully paid. for an event that they say is extremely rare.

Red Roo's time, customer services' time, Flight Centre's time, the passengers' time. surely it gets to a point where you just weigh up what is worth fighting and what is worth paying?

which again brings me to the question... I wonder how this has been escalated from AFF. which departments have been made aware of this? has legal been copied in? has the department responsible for refunds been copied in? I have been asking for some time now for a brief outline of how refunds are calculated (which should include the more important element of how they are justified under the calculation).

has red roo passed on that request? has the department received it but decided not to action it? it's starting to not look so good if a department won't explain to passengers how they calculate refunds.

Add in that I posted a request on November 18 for Red Roo - asking for the policy to be sent to me (as the Q page says you can request a copy to be provided to you) and Red Roo has not done so nor responded in anyway.

denied boarding compensation policy is available on request. <Red Roo I requested it - please provide!>

Perhaps the RR Dept keeps bad news from the rest of Q? If not then it looks even worse...

No, AFAIK they would have received $700 at LAX plus the eventual woeful calculated fare difference paid through FC.
In discussions with customer care they have been offered 50K FF points and a $500 voucher in addition to the FC calculated refund.

Raising it here may or may not have had anything to do with the second offer.

After the way they have been treated by Q and Red Roo - alleging misrepresentation - I would not consider flying on Q again if in their position. Therefore the FF points are worth approx $250 in conversion to cash and the $500 voucher worthless.

All compensation should be in cash with no strings attached and actually represent the true value lost not Q profit enhancing! But Santa does exist....