Downgraded from Business Class.

[Ric]

From experience!

 

[BNEFlyer]

Looking at the OP above (my bolding) it looks like the pax were booked on QF12 LAX/SYD then connecting on a domestic flight SYD/BNE.

Hi ozbeachbabe, EmilyP's parents were booked on QF16 from LAX. They did fly to JFK on QF a few weeks ago, travelled around the US and Canada and had made their way back to LAX for the flight home. I mentioned QF12 because had they been aware they could have asked the ground crew to reaccommodate them on that flight, then a domestic flight to BNE. Unfortunately by the time Emily (and I) were notified that there was an issue, 12 and 94 had closed. It seems QF16 is the last LAX-AUS/NZ flight to depart.

 

[GalaxyNexus]

The benefit of flying Y, you can never be downgraded! *well, technically you can be offloaded to JQ, but still.

 

[Sale]

Interesting to compare Qantas' (and other airlines probably) compensation to cruise lines where you book a category of cabin plus specific cabin number - just the same, but it really is an extended period in that cabin.

Earlier this year we were on a very popular/highly booked Oceania cruise, and our friends were booked in a PH suite - but a "guaranteed cabin" rather than a specific cabin number - the PH and verandah categories were sold out six months before the cruise. Following the blog on CruiseCritic.com passengers in the PH cabins were offered increasingly higher compensation to downgrade. People were talking very generally about the $ they were being offered. This would have had to happen all the way down the various grades of cabins as the PH passengers were bounced to verandah and the verandah passengers bounced to oceanview cabins etc.

I'm approximating and going from memory, but the PH cabins sold for about $10,000 PP, the class of cabin below (Concierge Verandah) about $8,500. Two couples said that they accepted the downgrade when the compo hit about $5000 PP - a nice little payback and everyone was very happy

- Oceania because they had a very full ship and also presumably a few passengers also forfeited their deposits/payments
- the downgraded passengers with still a good cabin one class below at a very cheap price
- and the passengers who bought the 'guaranteed' cabin ended up where they wanted.

Now if the airlines compensated in that manner - with decent compensation and choice......

 

[serfty]

Hi ozbeachbabe, EmilyP's parents were booked on QF16 from LAX. They did fly to JFK on QF a few weeks ago, travelled around the US and Canada and had made their way back to LAX for the flight home. ...

Ahhh ...that changes things somewhat (at least in trying to work out why the selection for the downgrade).

I was thinking a JFK check-in for QF108.

Did EmilyP's parents use OLCI? If not, precisely what time did they reach the actual check-in counter (not queue) at LAX for QF16?

 

[ozbeachbabe]

As QF16 is the last QF flight to depart LAX it's quite possible QF94 or QF12 were oversold with affected pax being transferred over to QF16 at the expense of the OP's parents.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

it's quite possible QF94 or QF12 were oversold

which I point out is an intentional act... to sell more seats than one has available for sale. Which is fine when it works, but when it doesn't it causes inconvenience.

The OP's parents don't appear to have been told there were weight restrictions, or some other issue which required aircraft to go out with less pax than capacity.

While the DOT states overselling is not illegal, they don't say it isn't a breach of contract.

(I keep getting notifications to this thread - each time thinking QF must have responded by now. This is turning into a bit of a PR issue now.)

 

[straitman]

which I point out is an intentional act... to sell more seats than one has available for sale. Which is fine when it works, but when it doesn't it causes inconvenience.

The OP's parents don't appear to have been told there were weight restrictions, or some other issue which required aircraft to go out with less pax than capacity.

While the DOT states overselling is not illegal, they don't say it isn't a breach of contract.

(I keep getting notifications to this thread - each time thinking QF must have responded by now. This is turning into a bit of a PR issue now.)

Only a PR issue here though which is a relatively small cross section unfortunately.

I do agree that QF could do themselves a huge favour by responding.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Only a PR issue here though which is a relatively small cross section unfortunately.

it depends if you see the AFF community as third party endorsers. I am sure one of the reasons we have engagement by the airline is that they are acutely aware some members make recommendations regarding product, service and reliability. that can easily extend to 30, 40 or 50 recommendations a year per person. the vast bulk of which I would say are actioned.

one simple sentence can make the difference between which airlinegets the $15k revenue or not.

 

[anna2103]

it depends if you see the AFF community as third party endorsers. I am sure one of the reasons we have engagement by the airline is that they are acutely aware some members make recommendations regarding product, service and reliability. that can easily extend to 30, 40 or 50 recommendations a year per person. the vast bulk of which I would say are actioned.

one simple sentence can make the difference between which airlinegets the $15k revenue or not.

Agree - and remember the no of people reading this is far larger than the number of responding to the thread. I only respond to or ask questions 1/100 of the time I spend on this website.

 

[EmilyP]

Good Morning All,

Mum spoke to Qantas Customer Care yesterday. Also have some additional details I forgot to put in previous post.

* When Mum arrived in Business Class (BC), the member of cabin crew who looks after BC came to introduce himself (like they do with all BC pax). He then expressed surprise that Mum was sitting in a different BC class seat that what was originally on their manifesto - and where was her husband? Exact quote "Oh Mrs xx_, we had you and your husband sitting in other BC seats, why are you sitting here"? This indicates that contrary to what Qantas told my Mum, they WERE allocated BC seats and were then bumped.

* As Mum was so upset her Qantas BC experience consisted of a bottle of water. She could not eat anything as her stomach was in knots, just took sleeping pills and tried to rest. While she did get to sit in BC, in her opinion she did not get the Business Class experience due to this issue and even after asking for some sort of compensation for this issue, none has been offered.

Results of conversation with Customer Care:

* Phone call didn't start off well. She was asked initially "Did you want to leave some feedback?". No, she wanted to lodge an official complaint and try and get some answers/resolution.

* She was advised (exact quote) "Even though Qantas confirms your ticket, as per our terms and conditions you are not guaranteed a seat on an aircraft". While this may be the case, it's not something that should be said to try and placate a customer who is becoming increasingly annoyed with not being given a reasonable resolution.

* Mum was advised that she would need to go to Flight Centre (who she booked the flights with) to apply for the fare difference. This was not something that QF could do. Mum has since called Flight Centre who have no knowledge of this process.

* The 'compensation' offered to my parents was, in their opinion, not good enough. This included some QFF points and a voucher for a future flight. After being loyal to QF for many years, at this stage even the offer of a 'free' flight is not enough to get them back onto a QF aircraft. My parents are still considering their options regarding acceptance of the compensation.

My family is not one to make a fuss over things, but like anyone we like to make things right when things go wrong. In my parents eyes QF have done wrong in this situation but it seems that Qantas don't seem to think they've done anything out of line. From what some of you have posted, this isn't a common occurrence, and hopefully it doesn't become one.

Thank you all for your comments and words of advice. I understand that some of you are very interested in the outcome of my parents complaint, I will keep the post updated when possible. Hopefully with a satisfactory outcome.

Thanks
EmilyP.

 

[EmilyP]

EmilyP, belated as it may be, and under very difficult circumstances for you and your parents - Welcome to AFF.

Thank you Jessica!

 

[EmilyP]

I presume check in was in New York, and, I guess (as this has not yet been made clear), QF (agents).

I have not seen how (and in what class) they travelled from New York to LAX.

No doubt, and in reality, it depends on what resources those 100-1 shots have. In this case BNEflyer brought this to our awareness at least here. Other PAX so affected may not be aware of AFF or FT.

!

Hi Serfty,

Check in was at LAX, and they were amongst the first to check in for their flight (they are chronic early airport arrivers )

Emily

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Good Morning All,

Mum spoke to Qantas Customer Care yesterday. Also have some additional details I forgot to put in previous post.

* When Mum arrived in Business Class (BC), the member of cabin crew who looks after BC came to introduce himself (like they do with all BC pax). He then expressed surprise that Mum was sitting in a different BC class seat that what was originally on their manifesto - and where was her husband? Exact quote "Oh Mrs xx_, we had you and your husband sitting in other BC seats, why are you sitting here"? This indicates that contrary to what Qantas told my Mum, they WERE allocated BC seats and were then bumped.

* As Mum was so upset her Qantas BC experience consisted of a bottle of water. She could not eat anything as her stomach was in knots, just took sleeping pills and tried to rest. While she did get to sit in BC, in her opinion she did not get the Business Class experience due to this issue and even after asking for some sort of compensation for this issue, none has been offered.

Results of conversation with Customer Care:

* Phone call didn't start off well. She was asked initially "Did you want to leave some feedback?". No, she wanted to lodge an official complaint and try and get some answers/resolution.

* She was advised (exact quote) "Even though Qantas confirms your ticket, as per our terms and conditions you are not guaranteed a seat on an aircraft". While this may be the case, it's not something that should be said to try and placate a customer who is becoming increasingly annoyed with not being given a reasonable resolution.

* Mum was advised that she would need to go to Flight Centre (who she booked the flights with) to apply for the fare difference. This was not something that QF could do. Mum has since called Flight Centre who have no knowledge of this process.

* The 'compensation' offered to my parents was, in their opinion, not good enough. This included some QFF points and a voucher for a future flight. After being loyal to QF for many years, at this stage even the offer of a 'free' flight is not enough to get them back onto a QF aircraft. My parents are still considering their options regarding acceptance of the compensation.

My family is not one to make a fuss over things, but like anyone we like to make things right when things go wrong. In my parents eyes QF have done wrong in this situation but it seems that Qantas don't seem to think they've done anything out of line. From what some of you have posted, this isn't a common occurrence, and hopefully it doesn't become one.

Thank you all for your comments and words of advice. I understand that some of you are very interested in the outcome of my parents complaint, I will keep the post updated when possible. Hopefully with a satisfactory outcome.

Thanks
EmilyP.

Unfortunately the Flight Centre refund may be in line with the table produce by QF - which suggests something like $1250.

I would gather your information, talk to Flight Centre, but make sure you don't accept anything which could later affect your rights.

If you can't get to a position you are looking for, contact consumer affairs (in your state). They offer free advice and can put you on the right path.

 

[Red Roo]

While I'm glad to hear that our crew did all possible to look after Mr and Mrs EmilyP onboard, the way in which this situation was managed and communicated has been followed up internally and with the customers directly.

Further to EmilyP’s update below, our Customer Care team have since contacted her parents to personally discuss the circumstances, and have offered them a gesture of goodwill over and above our guidelines in recognition of the downgrade and overall unhappy experience.

As some have pointed out, overbooking flights is not exclusive to Qantas. Operational changes such as aircraft types and rolling delays can also play a part in such situations. Our estimates for cancellations and ‘no shows’ are occasionally lower than expected, which is what happened on this occasion. I fully appreciate that we’ve let Mr and Mrs EmilyP down, especially in the way this situation was handled.

For your reference, Mr and Mrs EmilyP were offered alternatives, including the option to overnight at our expense in LAX with confirmed Business seats on QF16 the next day. As this was not an option for them, the ground team confirmed the only available seats.

We hope this remains a one off for Mr and Mrs EmilyP, and hope that Flight Centre are supportive in actioning the refund as per standard procedure. Our Customer Care team will continue to be available to the customers should they wish to follow up.

 

[vetrade]

The mentality that exists within QF could be that they do not want to set what they might call a "precedent" whereby making concessions to travellers could then open the floodgates by raising expectations of compensation. Obviously from our point of view as passengers such an approach is counter-productive and poor business but, like it or not, it is the standard modus operandi of most big businesses these days. For example phone and utility companies all do it too. Their approach is to frustrate claimants with delaying tactics (e.g. keep callers on hold for extended periods, slow or no reply to emails, answer complaints with info which is irrelevant to the complaint) with the hope that people just give up - which the companies chalk up as a successful outcome (for them).

Believe it or not these are tactics which management advisers actually recommend and teach companies how to implement.

 

[BNEFlyer]

For your reference, Mr and Mrs EmilyP were offered alternatives, including the option to overnight at our expense in LAX with confirmed Business seats on QF16 the next day. As this was not an option for them, the ground team confirmed the only available seats.

Even though the crew on board indicated that the manifesto had Mr and Mrs EmilyP in Business?

Was the option to fly on QF12/94 in Business offered? And were there no W seats available?

I'm also wondering why status pax in Business Class weren't asked to volunteer to downgrade or fly the next day, rather why they were told that's what was going to happen?

There seems to by no rhyme or reason as to who QF decides gets offloaded or downgraded. Or that QF gives any consideration to their customers needs (if you want to fly on the day you booked and there's no other option, too bad. Take what you're given and be happy with it).

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Red Roo, can you please let us know what the qantas guidelines are that you refer to?

if these are guidelines which apply to all passengers, and which qantas seeks to invoke, they should be available to the general public.

is it the same as the 'refund table'?

you will agree the compensation outlined in that table does not reflect the actualy cost difference between the fare paid, and class of service flown.

is the table purely 'compensation' over and above the full fare difference?

 

[Hvr]

So what is the order of downgrading? Given that both of the affected people are SG level it should be assumed they would not be downgraded until pax of lower status had also been downgraded.

Or is status not considered but some other factor used to determine the order of downgrade? Is it possible that because the tickets were purchased from a travel agent rather than through Qantas this meant they were chosen first?

EmilyP thank you for keeping us up to date with this saga and here's hoping it is resolved to you and your parents satisfaction.

 

[blackcat20]

So what is the order of downgrading? Given that both of the affected people are SG level it should be assumed they would not be downgraded until pax of lower status had also been downgraded.

Or is status not considered but some other factor used to determine the order of downgrade? Is it possible that because the tickets were purchased from a travel agent rather than through Qantas this meant they were chosen first?

EmilyP thank you for keeping us up to date with this saga and here's hoping it is resolved to you and your parents satisfaction.

When I was flying home from Dubai last year, it was all the people booked through Flight Centre that were waiting to see if they had a seat on QF10...