Downgraded from Business Class.

[MEL_Traveller]

I noted how the protection to customers in Australia is so poor...

Absolutely agree. I don't think many would be opposed to an EU261 equivalent here in Australia.

But have other laws such as those prohibiting component pricing which offer sufficient protection to the consumer.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

Refer to Golden Rule #1 - Never Assume.

Q may have called for volunteers or they may not.

I will add that question to my email to the DoT now together with a link to this thread so they have all the information to look into it.

calling for volunteers, in the case of the OP passengers, is irrelevant.

 

[drron]

QF may indeed have all bases covered as to their liabilities in this situation though it remains to be tested.However If I had this happen the compensation would have to be the difference in the J fare I paid and the discount economy price on the day I bought my ticket-to compare it to the economy fare on the day of flying is patently unfair.If you do this then the compensation should be between the J fare that you would pay if booking on the day of flying and the economy fare on that day.There would then need to be a goodwill payment for the lack of enjoyment etc.Although QF has done nothing wrong it is more so that the passenger has done nothing wrong.So maybe we should send a link to this thread to Senator Xenophon.He is likely to use it in his clashes with QF.

 

[RAM]

Again - this is bumping off the flight. Not a downgrade to a lower cabin.

It's a very simple concept.

Qantas has done nothing wrong in respect of the cabin downgrade (in terms of following procedure), and they have no case to answer for that with the DOT.

No you are confusing the ultimate result and not the process followed.

First they were told they would be down graded OR could fly the same class the next day. The offer of the same class the next day would, IMHO, immediately invoke the DoT regulations posted above. That Q said they had already called for volunteers due to overbooking also would invoke the regulations.

The DoT is very clear about the process to be followed and flying the next day (as was mentioned right in the early posts) was mentioned by the supervisor. But hopefully I'll get an answer from the DoT in the next few days which I will post in order to move the question from academic to actionable.

[h=4]4. OVERBOOKING[/h]Overbooking is not illegal, and most airlines overbook their scheduled flights to a certain extent in order to compensate for "no-shows." Passengers are sometimes left behind or "bumped" as a result. When an oversale occurs, the Department of Transportation (DOT) requires airlines to ask people who aren't in a hurry to give up their seats voluntarily, in exchange for compensation. Those passengers bumped against their will are, with a few exceptions, entitled to compensation.


That was the original outcome the passengers were presented with.


"The CSM checked their travel docs to see if they were actually booked into a lower class and she confirmed that they both definitely had Business tickets. The CSM said that the flight was oversold in J, but as they were on paid tickets (not award) and they are both Gold FF there were other pax that should have been downgraded before them. The CSM has lodged an in-house complaint on their behalf and keep them updated. The crew did mention that other pax had been downgraded and offered compensation as well.

QF did get back to my friends mother on FB about her own complaint but the response was 'sorry for the inconvenience, your complaint has been lodged and we'll reply in 15 business days'.

My friends parents are seasoned travellers (self funded, personal travel) and have taken 3 return BNE-US J class flights in the past 12 months. They always go back to QF no matter the cost, but this has cast a shadow on their love for QF. While they may not be the most valuable customers to Qantas, it's interesting to see how they treat Gold FF's and Business Class pax in the event of an oversold flight.

To be fair to QF, my friends mother said that the cabin crew were brilliant. Very apologetic and shocked that they, and a few other J pax had been downgraded. She also said that the QF ground crew in LAX could not have been more disinterested in what was happening and tried nothing to reaccommodate the pax. Their advice was to 'go and enjoy the lounge'"

At the least - readers of this thread know what to demand from Q in future if they are dealt with in this manner. I do not recall any poster who said they got USD 1,300 in cash compensation in addition to the hotel room etc.

If nothing else this should cause Red Roo and their superiors to rethink their 'goodwill' payment size in addition to the what sounds like an insufficient refund that should go straight to consumer affairs.

I admit it, I hope Q did not provide the written instructions, I really do. Then there will be some justice but it will not be from Q!

 

[MEL_Traveller]

No you are confusing the ultimate result and not the process followed.

First they were told they would be down graded OR could fly the same class the next day. The offer of the same class the next day would, IMHO, immediately invoke the DoT regulations posted above. That Q said they had already called for volunteers due to overbooking also would invoke the regulations.

The DoT is very clear about the process to be followed and flying the next day (as was mentioned right in the early posts) was mentioned by the supervisor. But hopefully I'll get an answer from the DoT in the next few days which I will post in order to move the question from academic to actionable.

At the least - readers of this thread know what to demand from Q in future if they are dealt with in this manner. I do not recall any poster who said they got USD 1,300 in cash compensation in addition to the hotel room etc.

If nothing else this should cause Red Roo and their superiors to rethink their 'goodwill' payment size in addition to the what sounds like an insufficient refund that should go straight to consumer affairs.

I admit it, I hope Q did not provide the written instructions, I really do. Then there will be some justice but it will not be from Q!

Again, the passengers were never denied boarding. They were offered a seat in coach. Therefore, no denied boarding right?

As an option, they were told they could give up their coach seat, and fly in business class the next day. In that case, they have chosen the business class seat the next day, and were not denied boarding.

Therefore, the airline, with respect to the OP passengers, do not have to call for volunteers.

If the passengers had arrived at check-in to be told... we're overbooked in business class AND we're overbooked in coach - THEN the airline would have had to follow procedure in respect of bumping passengers and calling for volunteers.

 

[Princess Fiona]

DOT regulations for involuntary boarding do not apply in this case.

 

[RAM]

DOT regulations for involuntary boarding do not apply in this case.

You may be correct but then again maybe not. I'll wait for the DoT's response.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

You may be correct but then again maybe not. I'll wait for the DoT's response.

RAM, can you please point out where DOT regulations that say volunteers must be called for if all passengers have boarded the plane?

 

[RAM]

RAM, can you please point out where DOT regulations that say volunteers must be called for if all passengers have boarded the plane?

Early in the thread it said they were told that volunteers had been called for. This should be sufficient trigger. Then for the CSM (allegedly) to say the flight was over-booked in business and some other business passengers had been paid compensation (which is what DoT procedures say must happen) would also trigger the operation.

Here is the text of email/online contact form and let's wait for the response (hopefully) in 8-10 days as stated in DoT receipt:
{I wonder who will be faster now? Q or US DoT, any bets?}

Dear Department of Transport
There was an incident earlier this year in October concerning a Qantas flight from LAX to Australia. It has been widely discussed in this Australian Frequent Flyer blog, and especially how poorly the two elderly passengers were treated before the flight and subsequently in seeking a refund for their eventual involuntary downgrading although they were offered to fly the next day.
As they were told that they had been involuntarily downgraded and did not hear any call for volunteers, and apparently were never informed of their legal rights nor given a written copy (as the DoT stated in the DOT Fines Delta for Violating Bumping Compensation Rules DOT 58-13) and were told they could fly in business class the next day - would this not invoke the 'Over-booking Rules' requiring amongst other things that they be informed of their full legal rights?
I note that the DoT fined Qantas earlier this year. Qantas flight QF008 was delayed for 4 hours before take-off from Dallas, Texas to Brisbane on 21 March 2013, and this has resulted in the airline being fined $90,000 in civil penalties for failing to tell passengers they could get off the aircraft during the tarmac delay. In the first consent order published by the United States (US) Department of Transportation (DOT) Office of the Secretary in Washington DC for 2014, on 15 January 2014 Qantas was ordered to pay the fine and cease and desist from future similar violations.
CONSENT ORDER
This consent order concerns violations by Qantas Airways Limited (Qantas) of 14 CFR Part 259 and 49 U.S.C. § 41712. Specifically, the carrier failed to inform passengers on a flight delayed for a period at the gate with the door open that they had the opportunity to deplane as required under Part 259. This order directs Qantas to cease and desist from future similar violations of 14 CFR Part 259 and 49 U.S.C. § 41712 and assesses the carrier $90,000 in civil penalties.

Should the two passengers lodge a complaint with the Department of Transportation concerning the events that transpired?
Thank you for your assistance and any advice you can provide,

 

[Pushka]

If I was told and not asked then that's all that counts.

 

[Moody]

So the moral of the story is .... if the airline insists that your original class of travel can't be fulfilled (even after stamping your feet and holding your breath), then your best option is to accept a delay in travel. If that is not possible then you need to somehow find out what the full refund will be plus the cost of an on-the-spot airfare (if available), and compare this against the incremental refund if you accept the airline's offer for a downgrade.

Sounds all too hard, so best go with option #1 or do what I do - never pay for a higher cabin with cash unless you are already at the airport.

 

[JohnK]

DOT regulations for involuntary boarding do not apply in this case.

Common sense applies in this case.

But sadly Qantas has failed miserably....

 

[Quickstatus]

Common sense applies in this case.

But sadly Qantas has failed miserably....

and unfortunately not from their POV

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So the moral of the story is .... if the airline insists that your original class of travel can't be fulfilled (even after stamping your feet and holding your breath), then your best option is to accept a delay in travel. If that is not possible then you need to somehow find out what the full refund will be plus the cost of an on-the-spot airfare (if available), and compare this against the incremental refund if you accept the airline's offer for a downgrade.

Sounds all too hard, so best go with option #1 or do what I do - never pay for a higher cabin with cash unless you are already at the airport.

measures which would be assisted by the check-in staff having the table on hand to show passengers how much they were going to get back so they could make an informed decision.

 

[Princess Fiona]

Common sense applies in this case.

But sadly Qantas has failed miserably....

I agree with you 100%. No-one on here believes that the current compensation arrangements are fair and adequate. We have major concerns over the handling of the incident by the staff at LAX.
QF have stated that the calculated refund due from the downgrade has been paid to Flight Centre. QF have stated that they have had discussions regarding further compensation which so far has included the offer of points and a voucher. We haven't yet heard anything further about that.

I fail to see how the continual re-hashing of irrelevant DOT regulations on denied boarding compensation is adding anything to the discussion.

 

[drron]

So just a dollar point.To fly tomorrow BNE-LAX is $930 in discount Y and $1451 Flexible.
Discount J is $5286 and flex J $5976.
The bandied amount of ~ $1250 just doesn't stack up.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

So just a dollar point.To fly tomorrow BNE-LAX is $930 in discount Y and $1451 Flexible.
Discount J is $5286 and flex J $5976.
The bandied amount of ~ $1250 just doesn't stack up.

that's about the extent of it, although the QF 'overbooking in class of service' terms and conditions say if the passenger deems any alternative as not suitable, you will be fully refunded your fare for the affected flight*. You would take option of the fully refunded fare (just the one way of course, without any fare repricing) and go and buy the $930 discount.


*usually the refund of the outbound flight would lead to the cancellation or repricing of the return, however the terms and conditions make no provision for QF to be allowed to do this.

 

[farstar]

that's about the extent of it, although the QF 'overbooking in class of service' terms and conditions say if the passenger deems any alternative as not suitable, you will be fully refunded your fare for the affected flight*. You would take option of the fully refunded fare (just the one way of course, without any fare repricing) and go and buy the $930 discount.


*usually the refund of the outbound flight would lead to the cancellation or repricing of the return, however the terms and conditions make no provision for QF to be allowed to do this.

Also as Red Roo said over booking is required for QANTAS to keep fares down so if your get caught in a downgrade you are taking one for the team to help QANTAS profits.

 

[Kangol]

It may be relevant but that's between QF and TA. It was not disclosed to the customer. Hidden rules, and TC are never viewed favourably by any court especially if it benefits the actors who made those conditions.

Just like a doctor who operates on a patient's eye. It's written in medical textbooks that a rare complication can blind the patient. The doctor does not warn the patient who goes blind. The court decided in favour of the patient because the patient was not warned. The patient could have looked at the medical texts to research for themselves but didn't- she relied on the doctors assurances. Multimillion payout.

Paraphrasing elements of Rogers v Whitaker as a comparison to the topic of this thread... seriously... not even close.

I do hope something good comes out of this for the parties involved. Even though no one is obliged to reveal anything in this world, including the details of what compensation is or is not offered, or the guidelines as to how those parameters come about, at what point would it end? Why even share any information at all?

Choosing not to say something often speaks more about the person (or group) involved. Remember, it is always a choice...

Thankyou to EmilyP for sharing.

 

[serfty]

...
*usually the refund of the outbound flight would lead to the cancellation or repricing of the return, however the terms and conditions make no provision for QF to be allowed to do this.

Interesting point - the fare was advised as $7500 each. Remember, it was an open jaw BNE-xLAX-JFK, LAX-BNE.

Do the TnC/CoC state anything specifically that they could not do that?

Currently there's an 'Early Bird Sale'; Form BNE to LAX is $6005 return and JFK $7000 return.

Strangely enough a multi city returns a fare of $6505, so lets assume the subject fare was this $6505 which is $3500 for JFK and $3005 for LAX - these are the components of return fares.

Now lets say one buys this fare and travels to JFK and later on something happens at LAX and Qantas are to refund the remain fare.

Don't expect it to be $3005 ... before any refund happens the fare would be recalculated on the price for that already used which is one-way BNE-JFK - currently no less than $7818.

Even if calculated on drron's quoted $5286 for LAX it does not leave much