EK521 - B777 Crash landing in DXB

[MEL_Traveller]

I presume that's the Captains call albeit based on advice?

There is nothing outside the 4 corners of the safety card that is more important in an emergency.

This raises a point. While passengers need to be across the safety card, there is arguably one more important thing... the ability of the crew to act. That's both the pilot and the cabin crew in cases where the pilot(s) may fail to act.

But there's probably a lot more research to go in to this. If the wing is on fire but the captain 'decides' to hold everyone on board, what empowers the cabin crew to override that 'captain's call'? We have CRM for the flight deck, how does that extend into the cabin?

How long do cabin crew wait before taking action themselves? (OZ as an example here) Should they be better empowered to make those decisions? What if a particular airline's training or culture hinders that action?

 

[OATEK]

Re: Emirates 777 fire at DXB

Very true, accidents happen at the most inconvenient time. Strangely enough those are not the times when you do a research project. When accidents happen and your life is threatened that's when you shove someone and tell them to "F'ing move you complete numpty". That way when the aircraft explodes you're not in still in there waiting for some knob to get the luggage.
When I was in a fully submerged car in a flash flood, I sure as hell didn't do a research project on how people respond to stress - I acted and possibly save 3 lives. And the other two possibly saved my life once we were out of the car, and certainly saved me by walking 18 km in the dark for help.

I guess that's another perspective.



Speak for yourself, don't project on others. I've been in sticky situations, they weren't in an armchair, I understand how I react. I mentally go through my actions during the safety brief on every flight.

I did speak for myself just as you have done but neither of us can project on to others.Each individual will act differently hence some will do as they are told and some want to take their baggage.It is human nature.

Accidents and emergencies bring out the worst and best in people. We had neighbours flee their house at the last minute in the face of a major bushfire, leaving a 14yo holding a hose on their roof (the latter my brother). After the fire had passed and he had kept the gutters filled with water, he called for the ladder and the owners were gone. Took us a while to work out where he was and get him down.

I was building emergency control officer when an explosion occurred (16 story CBD building). Some fled in panic, others like me wearing the coloured hats did our jobs.

As I said, in an emergency you see the best and the worst of human behaviour.

 

[suze2000]

http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_may-june04.pdf

I read this with interest, it pretty much confirmed most of what people are saying here. One thing that bothers me is the discussion around languages.

The suggestion that "Leave Everything!" might cause some pax to leave their life jackets behind so the preference being "Leave Belongings".

Well that's great if all your pax are native English speakers but many new migrants and ESLs aren't going to understand "belongings" and I don't know why they don't go with something simpler like "NO BAGS!"

There's also the issue which is related and that is that on a lot of flights, a good proportion of pax probably do not speak enough of the carrier's language to understand the safety briefing. I know that English is a very widely understood language but this still concerns me. I've been on flights where it's clear some pax don't understand the briefing and they also prevent other people from paying attention by talking all the way through it.

 

[RooFlyer]

<snip>
A FA friend told me that they are trained to grab bags and throw them clear so pax do not go down the slides with bags. <snip>.

I recall a case ( not specific flight, sorry) when a Qantas FA grabbed a bag off a passenger, who had retrieved it from the locker in an emergency situation) and flung it away. A big tick for the FA from me!

This raises a point. While passengers need to be across the safety card, there is arguably one more important thing... the ability of the crew to act. That's both the pilot and the cabin crew in cases where the pilot(s) may fail to act.

But there's probably a lot more research to go in to this. If the wing is on fire but the captain 'decides' to hold everyone on board, what empowers the cabin crew to override that 'captain's call'? We have CRM for the flight deck, how does that extend into the cabin?

How long do cabin crew wait before taking action themselves? (OZ as an example here) Should they be better empowered to make those decisions? What if a particular airline's training or culture hinders that action?

That's something that exercises my mind. The pilots I think its fair to say have a poor view of the rear of the plane. If evacuation is their call, what does happen if there is a fire or smoke at the back, and the pilots are un-aware? If its an emergency, pilots presumably busy and may not care to answer a call from the cabin. They may even be incapacitated.

JB and other pilots who may be here, can you say if Australian airlines have policies that allow FAs to initiate an evacuation in the absence of a specific call from the captain, or say to deploy slides to prepare for an evacuation or even, at the extreme, to evacuate if its clear to them that there is real an imminent threat to passenger safety/lives?

 

[Quickstatus]

Additional to language issues, educational attainment can also be an issue. Illiteracy is as pervasive as poverty worldwide. Subcontinental travellers to DXB are often labourers or low skill workers but most of them understand English. Doesn't EK pride itself on their UN style multilingual capabilities?

I dare say that subcontinent educational standards especially in maths and sciences are higher than achieved by OZ kids (or their teachers)

 

[jb747]

JB and other pilots who may be here, can you say if Australian airlines have policies that allow FAs to initiate an evacuation in the absence of a specific call from the captain, or say to deploy slides to prepare for an evacuation or even, at the extreme, to evacuate if its clear to them that there is real an imminent threat to passenger safety/lives?

They are not to initiate an evacuation without attempting to contact the pilots. If they are unable to do so, then they may well be in charge. If they feel that their life is immediately threatened, then they should do whatever they need to do.

As has been discussed here previously, there are times when time itself seems to flow at different rates on aircraft. The 30 seconds or so that the pilots need to run the evacuation checklist might seem like hours in the cabin. But, if you don't wait for it to complete, you may well open a slide into an operating engine.

Our evacuation signal system can be selected so that it can only be activated by the Captain, or to allow Captain/CSM. We fly with the latter selected.

 

[jb747]

The first part of your comment is interesting. There have been, seemingly, a fair few evacuations recently where injury has been low or even absent. Aircraft design, slide design, and other factors - all probably contribute to this being more safe.

But we still have cases where airlines and pilots appear to err on the side of caution by not ordering an evacuation even when it really is touch and go. Perhaps their thinking and training is based on older research regarding injury rate.

I'd like to see some current evaluations and analysis take place to see if it really has changed.

As far as I can recall, there has been only one case where a confirmed, unconfined fire existed (SQ).

Having been in the position of considering an evacuation, and deciding not to, I can say that the decision was not taken lightly. If there had been the slightest mention of fire, I'd have pulled the trigger.

 

[UP4014]

This raises a point. While passengers need to be across the safety card, there is arguably one more important thing... the ability of the crew to act. That's both the pilot and the cabin crew in cases where the pilot(s) may fail to act.

But there's probably a lot more research to go in to this. If the wing is on fire but the captain 'decides' to hold everyone on board, what empowers the cabin crew to override that 'captain's call'? We have CRM for the flight deck, how does that extend into the cabin?

How long do cabin crew wait before taking action themselves? (OZ as an example here) Should they be better empowered to make those decisions? What if a particular airline's training or culture hinders that action?

In the end it's a judgement call and someone just has to make it or the passengers will.

This is the result of not making a decision, after getting the plane on the ground everyone dies waiting.
Untitled Document

 

[codash1099]

How's this for drawing a long bow?

Emirates crisis is third Boeing 777 emergency in weeks | The New Daily

 

[jb747]

Well, if you go to AvHerald, you'll find that the A320 has had that many in days. Typical gibberish article.

 

[Quickstatus]

This raises a point. While passengers need to be across the safety card, there is arguably one more important thing... the ability of the crew to act. That's both the pilot and the cabin crew in cases where the pilot(s) may fail to act.

Yes - should have included: "apart from a trained cabin crew..." I do wonder how the petite softly spoken Singapore Girl in those restrictive sarongs really cope in an emergency. (although they may be black belt 7th dan )

 

[MEL_Traveller]

As far as I can recall, there has been only one case where a confirmed, unconfined fire existed (SQ).

Having been in the position of considering an evacuation, and deciding not to, I can say that the decision was not taken lightly. If there had been the slightest mention of fire, I'd have pulled the trigger.

Asiana is another example that comes to mind with pilot hesitation. Thankfully a flight attendant acted despite that to initiate the evacuation.

I'm sure training helps to focus minds during an emergency, but it's probably likely the ultimate reaction of pilots in a real situation will vary. Most will be competent, a few may not be. If a pilot has contributed to the crash maybe they won't be thinking as rationally as they might otherwise be.

The difficulty for the cabin crew and passengers is not knowing what sort of pilot they have. Possibly compounded by cabin crew who might otherwise evacuate may feel constrained because of airline culture.

 

[under the radar]

Yes - should have included: "apart from a trained cabin crew..." I do wonder how the petite softly spoken Singapore Girl in those restrictive sarongs really cope in an emergency. (although they may be black belt 7th dan )

that old saying, never judge a book by its cover. FAs, regardless of airline or gender, are highly trained (constantly) to 'switch to emergency mode' when required, and regardless of what they are wearing:shock:. It all comes down to 'respect' of FAs actual job...to save your cough in an emergency/evac, doing their best with a motley bunch of pax who seem to know better! It's the varied passenger 'types' who present the problems, and that's the world we live in. The same 'rule' applies to emergencies as inflight service...the 'situation' cant please everyone!!:shock:
I must add it is a breath of fresh air reading jb747 posts on this topic, providing facts, logic

 

[jb747]

Asiana is another example that comes to mind with pilot hesitation. Thankfully a flight attendant acted despite that to initiate the evacuation.

I'm sure training helps to focus minds during an emergency, but it's probably likely the ultimate reaction of pilots in a real situation will vary. Most will be competent, a few may not be. If a pilot has contributed to the crash maybe they won't be thinking as rationally as they might otherwise be.

The difficulty for the cabin crew and passengers is not knowing what sort of pilot they have. Possibly compounded by cabin crew who might otherwise evacuate may feel constrained because of airline culture.

We probably need to differentiate the accidents that are outright crashes (this one, Asiana) from the rest of the field. I know there'll be cases where that's not so easy. It you've crashed, it doesn't matter who makes the call, but being elsewhere is probably a good idea.

 

[UP4014]

that old saying, never judge a book by its cover. FAs, regardless of airline or gender, are highly trained (constantly) to 'switch to emergency mode' when required, and regardless of what they are wearing:shock:. It all comes down to 'respect' of FAs actual job...to save your cough in an emergency/evac, doing their best with a motley bunch of pax who seem to know better! It's the varied passenger 'types' who present the problems, and that's the world we live in. The same 'rule' applies to emergencies as inflight service...the 'situation' cant please everyone!!:shock:
I must add it is a breath of fresh air reading jb747 posts on this topic, providing facts, logic

Just remember not all airlines are created equal, that goes for training as well.

 

[blackcat20]

Just remember not all airlines are created equal, that goes for training as well.

There's a reason why some airlines are on my no-fly list (like Asiana)...EK might have just warranted being re-added to that list.

 

[cgichard]

The recent SQ 777 engine fire at Changi was a good example of a very brave call to keep everyone on board whilst firefighting was underway outside.

Some 20 years ago we were on an AirFrance plane that had commenced descent into Changi when my (then) 7 y.o. son who had the window seat said: "Look, Mummy, there's fire coming from that engine." The FAs were busy checking seat-belts were fastened so he was the first to notice it. In all that ensued I don't recall any "Get ready for evacuation" announcement, but what I do recall is more fire-engines than I had ever before seen in one place waiting on the tarmac as we landed, and exited the plane in the normal manner. All these years later I'm at last realizing what a fortunate escape we had.

 

[jb747]

Some 20 years ago we were on an AirFrance plane that had commenced descent into Changi when my (then) 7 y.o. son who had the window seat said: "Look, Mummy, there's fire coming from that engine." The FAs were busy checking seat-belts were fastened so he was the first to notice it. In all that ensued I don't recall any "Get ready for evacuation" announcement, but what I do recall is more fire-engines than I had ever before seen in one place waiting on the tarmac as we landed, and exited the plane in the normal manner. All these years later I'm at last realizing what a fortunate escape we had.

A fire that's put out, or an engine that's compressor stalled and been shut down, are fairly good outcomes. Having the services meet you, and then having some follow you to the bay is a pretty normal way of handling such an issue.

 

[Julesmac]

I read this with interest, it pretty much confirmed most of what people are saying here. One thing that bothers me is the discussion around languages.

The suggestion that "Leave Everything!" might cause some pax to leave their life jackets behind so the preference being "Leave Belongings".

Well that's great if all your pax are native English speakers but many new migrants and ESLs aren't going to understand "belongings" and I don't know why they don't go with something simpler like "NO BAGS!"

There's also the issue which is related and that is that on a lot of flights, a good proportion of pax probably do not speak enough of the carrier's language to understand the safety briefing. I know that English is a very widely understood language but this still concerns me. I've been on flights where it's clear some pax don't understand the briefing and they also prevent other people from paying attention by talking all the way through it.

I don't find the briefing riveting but always watch it.....seeing the number of folk who ignore or yabber - I've often wondered how any of us would go trying to repeat and demonstrate it ourselves!

 

[TomVexille]

I don't find the briefing riveting but always watch it.....seeing the number of folk who ignore or yabber - I've often wondered how any of us would go trying to repeat and demonstrate it ourselves!

On NZs domestic a320s the crew do a personal briefing for those in 1A-C as they can't see any of the dropdown screens. I amused the FA by miming the briefing in time to the audio of the video