EK521 - B777 Crash landing in DXB

[Meggsy]

Isn't this a situation where the lockers need to be lockable in an emergency ?
Slides deployed , lockers latched, game over.
People will always act for their personal priorities and then claim ignorance later for causing a loss of life

While this idea has merit I am sure it would lead to people delaying or refusing to evacuate because they couldn't open the locker and retrieve carry on.

 

[tgh]

While this idea has merit I am sure it would lead to people delaying or refusing to evacuate because they couldn't open the locker and retrieve carry on.

…and be trampled in the rush.. couldn't happen to nicer folks…

 

[katiebell]

We all hope we would do the right thing in an emergency but none of us know until we are in that situation.

There are many reports of pax unable to get out of seats because they tried to 'press the button on the seatbelt' (as we do in cars) rather than 'lift the flap' as is the case in many aircraft. This is a reason for the replacement of seatbelts to those with button-release catches. An example of how the seemingly simple becomes incredibly difficult in an emergency.

A FA friend told me that they are trained to grab bags and throw them clear so pax do not go down the slides with bags. Having FAs who are able to take control and give orders is critical in this sort of situation and worth considering when booking flights.

 

[whatmeworry]

This meme came into my head when I heard about the pax grabbing their overhead luggage.

 

[PineappleSkip]

A FA friend told me that they are trained to grab bags and throw them clear so pax do not go down the slides with bags. Having FAs who are able to take control and give orders is critical in this sort of situation and worth considering when booking flights.

Indeed, found another article on this point. Seems baggage in evacuations is a BIG problem, and there are plenty worse evacuations than EK521.
http://flightsafety.org/ccs/ccs_may-june04.pdf

Not sure how to pick an airline or flight with the FAs with the best cabin control though. Dragonair perhaps?

Cheers skip

 

[drron]

We all hope we would do the right thing in an emergency but none of us know until we are in that situation.
.

Absolutely right.Easy to be smart from the comfort of an armchair but not necessarily what happens when actually faced with such a situation.I once experienced a situation where an immediate decision had to be made and I did exactly the opposite of what I said I would do.I didn't run away.

 

[Meggsy]

There have been a number of incidents recently where evacuations have been required that have thankfully seen all pax and crew relatively unharmed. Significant improvements in on board design and furnishings from a fire safety perspective have given pax more safety margin than ever before. It is important to remember though that external fire, given the right conditions, can breach a fuselage in as little as 20 seconds. Once this has occurred interior conditions will deteriorate very quickly without an effective intervention. There really is no justification whatsoever for not immediately heading to the nearest available exit, as quickly as possible, when directed to. A review of the accident investigation into the British Airtours 737 incident at Manchester in 1985 is a very good case in point of a survivable incident in which many people (55) died due to an inadequate evacuation and a rapid interior fire escalation.

 

[Milboo]

I think it is very easy to judge other people's action from the safety of your couch but when placed in the same situation as these pax, the logic/ common sense can quickly disappear and people just act automatically (hence the whole reason they explain about how to lift belt buckle).

I would like to think I would not grab my small bag (not roll on) but another part of me would want to grab it instinctively especially as it contains the means for me to contact my family etc.

 

[MEL_Traveller]

There have been a number of incidents recently where evacuations have been required that have thankfully seen all pax and crew relatively unharmed. Significant improvements in on board design and furnishings from a fire safety perspective have given pax more safety margin than ever before. It is important to remember though that external fire, given the right conditions, can breach a fuselage in as little as 20 seconds. Once this has occurred interior conditions will deteriorate very quickly without an effective intervention. There really is no justification whatsoever for not immediately heading to the nearest available exit, as quickly as possible, when directed to. A review of the accident investigation into the British Airtours 737 incident at Manchester in 1985 is a very good case in point of a survivable incident in which many people (55) died due to an inadequate evacuation and a rapid interior fire escalation.

The first part of your comment is interesting. There have been, seemingly, a fair few evacuations recently where injury has been low or even absent. Aircraft design, slide design, and other factors - all probably contribute to this being more safe.

But we still have cases where airlines and pilots appear to err on the side of caution by not ordering an evacuation even when it really is touch and go. Perhaps their thinking and training is based on older research regarding injury rate.

I'd like to see some current evaluations and analysis take place to see if it really has changed.

 

[samh004]

Isn't this a situation where the lockers need to be lockable in an emergency ?
Slides deployed , lockers latched, game over.
People will always act for their personal priorities and then claim ignorance later for causing a loss of life

Which was going to lead me to post exactly this:

While this idea has merit I am sure it would lead to people delaying or refusing to evacuate because they couldn't open the locker and retrieve carry on.

…and be trampled in the rush.. couldn't happen to nicer folks…

Really uncalled for

 

[dajop]

Perhaps rather focussing on the message "Don't take baggage with you or retrieve from overhead locker yada yada", focus should be on being prepared for evacuation just in case, so you don't even have to think about it.

Being a fairly frequent flyer, albeit thankfully have never had to face the situation, I carry my passport, wallet and phone in pockets therefore I'd like to think during emergency evacuation I wouldn't even give forgetting my hand baggage a second thought. For the half of the population who usually don't have pockets in their clothing, I guess it's more difficult.

 

[Meggsy]

The first part of your comment is interesting. There have been, seemingly, a fair few evacuations recently where injury has been low or even absent. Aircraft design, slide design, and other factors - all probably contribute to this being more safe.

But we still have cases where airlines and pilots appear to err on the side of caution by not ordering an evacuation even when it really is touch and go. Perhaps their thinking and training is based on older research regarding injury rate.

I'd like to see some current evaluations and analysis take place to see if it really has changed.

Agree. The recent SQ 777 engine fire at Changi was a good example of a very brave call to keep everyone on board whilst firefighting was underway outside. It proved to be a good decision in the end but I'm hearing it has not gone down at all well with Singaporean authorities for either the fire officer who made the request or the aircraft captain for agreeing.
It is clearly a fine line that historically erred on the side of caution and evacuate however this does appear to be changing. I'm not aware of any recent studies that support this change of thinking, just lessons learned from incidents.

 

[jb747]

Agree. The recent SQ 777 engine fire at Changi was a good example of a very brave call to keep everyone on board whilst firefighting was underway outside. It proved to be a good decision in the end but I'm hearing it has not gone down at all well with Singaporean authorities for either the fire officer who made the request or the aircraft captain for agreeing.
It is clearly a fine line that historically erred on the side of caution and evacuate however this does appear to be changing. I'm not aware of any recent studies that support this change of thinking, just lessons learned from incidents.

Aluminium is not something that will provide any protection worth knowing about. Once a burn-though happens you are in very severe trouble, and it can happen in as few as 10-15 seconds. Very few pilots would agree with your assessment of it being a good idea to have kept those passengers on board. If anything, it's a non decision (i.e. they did nothing).

 

[flying_double]

Re: Emirates 777 fire at DXB

From the video footage I've seen it looked like an uncontrolled cabin. . The QF evacuation in Singapore was a controlled cabin by comparison.

I wouldn't want to draw any further conclusions from that

The two situations/evacuations can't be compared, the circumstances were completely different. The Emirates crew and passengers had no time to prepare for an evacuation - the flight transitioned from normal to crash landing within seconds. While the Qantas incident was very serious, they had time on their side to prepare for and execute the eventual evacuation, so its no surprise that the respective footage is like chalk and cheese.

Kudos to the crew for getting everyone off in time.

 

[Sprucegoose]

Agree. The recent SQ 777 engine fire at Changi was a good example of a very brave call to keep everyone on board whilst firefighting was underway outside. It proved to be a good decision in the end but I'm hearing it has not gone down at all well with Singaporean authorities for either the fire officer who made the request or the aircraft captain for agreeing.
It is clearly a fine line that historically erred on the side of caution and evacuate however this does appear to be changing. I'm not aware of any recent studies that support this change of thinking, just lessons learned from incidents.

There was the same decision made in the QF32 incident where pax where kept onboard. I presume that's the Captains call albeit based on advice?

 

[jb747]

Last time I looked QF32 wasn't actually on fire. In any event, unlike most airlines, QF has a half way position with regard to evacuations. There is another procedure that will allow a more controlled and hopefully safer way to disembark, if no overriding hurry exists. It's a tool that's there to be used if needed.

 

[medhead]

Re: Emirates 777 fire at DXB

I'm glad to see some members here are more level-headed with their posts and not attacking people who were in a real life crash landing not 24 hours ago. I would agree, research should be undertaken, and perhaps education on what to keep on yourself, but accidents happen at the most inconvenient times! Spouting about how you'd shove someone in the back and use some choice words doesn't get to the bottom of the situation, and I think we all understand everyones will to live and not be selfish.

Very true, accidents happen at the most inconvenient time. Strangely enough those are not the times when you do a research project. When accidents happen and your life is threatened that's when you shove someone and tell them to "F'ing move you complete numpty". That way when the aircraft explodes you're not in still in there waiting for some knob to get the luggage.
When I was in a fully submerged car in a flash flood, I sure as hell didn't do a research project on how people respond to stress - I acted and possibly save 3 lives. And the other two possibly saved my life once we were out of the car, and certainly saved me by walking 18 km in the dark for help.

I guess that's another perspective.

 

[moa999]

Re: Emirates 777 fire at DXB

Crew details are seemingly coming out.

Co-pilot is reportedly an Australian on leave from QF with EK for under a year. Name can be found in media but I'm not quoting it.
Captain is reportedly a local Emirati.

DG&P forum notes the difference to the EK407 incident at MEL where both pilots were expats, and exited EK fairly quickly

 

[Quickstatus]

Absolutely right.Easy to be smart from the comfort of an armchair but not necessarily what happens when actually faced with such a situation.I once experienced a situation where an immediate decision had to be made and I did exactly the opposite of what I said I would do.I didn't run away.

Cognitvely we are at our best when we are sitting in an armchair. This is why people tend to for example have the answers when watching a game show. On the other hand our brains turn to mush in an emergency. This is why passengers forget how to release the seatbelt in an emergency. When we are in an emergency or time critical or high stakes scenario we don't perform as well and may indeed make a decision completely contrary to the armchair position or what we have memorised or trained for.

Training and simulations can improve this gap. Another tool is the checklists - pilots use this so their brains can be freed to fly the aircraft. As passengers our checklist is the safetycard. There is nothing outside the 4 corners of the safety card that is more important in an emergency.

Cabin crew recommend passengers familiarise themselves with the safetycard. Don't stop there - use it in an emergency because cognitively even though you may be the most logical armchair expert on AFF and perhaps the world, your brains will likely turn to mush and you need something simple to follow in an emergency!!

Its very naive to say you know the safety card backwards / sideways/ upside down and can recite it verbatim - that cognitive skill will likely disappear when you are in an emergency - even if you are a game show champion and can memorise the most obscure piece of trivia. That's why pilots read the checklist aloud rather than rely on their memories of the checklist - even after thousands of hours and many takeoffs and landings.

 

[Pushka]

As I have not been on a plane that crashed and is on fire I simply do not know how I would react. Not much else comes close to that situation. Maybe a fire in a high rise.