Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[woodborer]

But it seems weird to put out a 'safe' option and then a 'safer option'. Would you like one parachute on your skydive today or two?

And neither option deals with the fact that the MCAS is a dangerous bit of kit in its current form.

 

[moa999]

it improved safety why was it only optional instead of mandatory?

I think this and MH370 show that safety and tracking shouldn't be optional.

As for FAA and grounding..
After the first incident we still don't have a firm cause, just speculation that seems to sit somewhere between design, faulty sensor, pilot training and pilot error.

With QF32 even though Qantas grounded it's fleet after the incidentinciden stub pipe was found LH and SQ generally kept flying, and they did in service engine replacements over the next few months.

 

[RooFlyer]

This is an interesting development - but note timing. Probably pay walled, but Google the headline, from to Oz:

Prosecutors join Boeing 737 MAX probe

US federal prosecutors and Department of Transportation officials are scrutinising the development of Boeing Co’s 737 MAX jetliners, according to people familiar with the matter, unusual inquiries that come amid probes of regulators’ safety approvals of the new plane.

A grand jury in Washington, DC, issued a broad subpoena dated March 11 to at least one person involved in the 737 MAX’s development, seeking related documents, including correspondence, emails and other messages, one of these people said.

The subpoena, with a prosecutor from the Justice Department’s criminal division listed as a contact, sought documents to be handed over later this month.

It wasn’t immediately clear whether the Justice Department’s probe is related to scrutiny of the Federal Aviation Administration by the DOT inspector general’s office, reported earlier by The Wall Street Journal and that focuses on a safety system that has been implicated in the October 29 Lion Air crash that killed 189 people, according to a government official briefed on its status.

The subpoena was sent a day after the Ethiopian Airlines crash a week ago.


I'm not sure you can do that in a day, so seems it was part of a longer running investigation.


The Justice Department probe involves a prosecutor in the fraud section of the department’s criminal division, a unit that has brought cases against well-known manufacturers over safety issues, including Takata Corp.

In the US, it is highly unusual for federal prosecutors to investigate details of regulatory approval of commercial aircraft designs, or to use a criminal probe to delve into dealings between the FAA and the largest aircraft manufacturer the agency oversees.

Probes of airliner programs or alleged lapses in federal safety oversight typically are handled as civil cases, often by the DOT inspector general. The inspector general, however, does have authority to make criminal referrals to federal prosecutors and has its own special agents.

Repeatedly over the years, US aviation companies and airline officials have been sharply critical of foreign governments, including France, South Korea and others, for conducting criminal probes of some plane makers, their executives and in some cases, even individual pilots, after high-profile or fatal crashes.

 

[bigjobs]

unsure if this article has been posted ...

Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system

 

[amaroo]

Reading a few links that have been posted it seems to me that the US authorities have given the green light for the MAX to fly based on US flying conditions I.E. pilot training, experience, quality.

This potentially has exposed serious issues where other governments have followed the US without factoring in their "pilot" factor..... mind you Boeing shouldn't really market a product to the third world that requires first world pilot operating conditions.

Speed to market, no training sales pitch, revenue and profit looks to have overridden everything else.

 

[woodborer]

I think this and MH370 show that safety and tracking shouldn't be optional.

Was tracking ever offered as an option?

 

[Himeno]

Was tracking ever offered as an option?

Inmarsat, who own the communications satellites, offered the basic hourly ping service and a consent tracking service as an extra option. MH didn't want to pay the extra for more then the hourly checks.

 

[Quickstatus]

Reading a few links that have been posted it seems to me that the US authorities have given the green light for the MAX to fly based on US flying conditions I.E. pilot training, experience, quality.

This potentially has exposed serious issues where other governments have followed the US without factoring in their "pilot" factor..... mind you Boeing shouldn't really market a product to the third world that requires first world pilot operating conditions.

Speed to market, no training sales pitch, revenue and profit looks to have overridden everything else.

Boeing, Airbus and any other commercial aircraft operators...
But then If sales are dependant on a minimum competency, what is the minimum standard?

 

[stm1sydney]

A key question for me is: MCAS can only intervene with the flaps in the retracted position, which normally occurs from about 3000 feet above ground level. The Ethiopian 737 experienced problems from 1000 feet. Does this mean it could not have been improper MCAS intervention that caused the flight control issues?

 

[Quickstatus]

A key question for me is: MCAS can only intervene with the flaps in the retracted position, which normally occurs from about 3000 feet above ground level. The Ethiopian 737 experienced problems from 1000 feet. Does this mean it could not have been improper MCAS intervention that caused the flight control issues?

I had thought that too - see upthread.
There are similarities but no one is pointing out the differences. This is one.

Related to this, I asked whether the flaps can autoretract when the aircraft overspeeds for that flap setting.

 

[amaroo]

Boeing, Airbus and any other commercial aircraft operators...
But then If sales are dependant on a minimum competency, what is the minimum standard?

I think the lack of required formal training / qualification for this new aircraft is the issue .... not so much the training of individual pilots.

 

[UP4014]

They used to do hundreds of hours testing, that is flying around testing, now a computer does virtual testing. They started this with the 777.

The FAA (aka the tombstone agency as they don't like to rock the boat until tombstones starting going in the ground) is in a position being charged promotion of air travel and regulation of air travel.

A book worth reading if into the FAA and some of its workings.
https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Safe-Mary-Schiavo/dp/0380975327

 

[codash1099]

Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX

I wonder to what extent "grandfathering" of changes contributed to the current problem. After all, the 737 originated in the 1960s. Surely there is a limit on how old your grandfather can be.

 

[Himeno]

Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX

I wonder to what extent "grandfathering" of changes contributed to the current problem. After all, the 737 originated in the 1960s. Surely there is a limit on how old your grandfather can be.

The changes to the aircraft from the NG are the reason the MCAS system was made.
The larger engines meant they had to be moved forward and higher compared to the prior version. The airflow changes caused by that move required MCAS.

 

[Quickstatus]

Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX

I wonder to what extent "grandfathering" of changes contributed to the current problem. After all, the 737 originated in the 1960s. Surely there is a limit on how old your grandfather can be.

But airlines like Southwest (WN) love their Grandfather

 

[Quickstatus]

Rumours that FAA will sign off on remedial 737max8 software imposing MCAS trim hardlimits on March 25.

However FAA approved MCAS V1 so is it the appropriate body to approve MCAS V2?

 

[33kft]

However FAA approved MCAS V1 so is it the appropriate body to approve MCAS V2?

Well given the only confirmed MCAS intervention in an incident so far is the Lion Air incident and we didn't strip the FAA of their powers then, I think it would make sense to give the authorities a little more time to publish their findings before our hypothetical replacement of US civil aviation authorities.

 

[Quickstatus]

Well given the only confirmed MCAS intervention in an incident so far is the Lion Air incident and we didn't strip the FAA of their powers then, I think it would make sense to give the authorities a little more time to publish their findings before our hypothetical replacement of US civil aviation authorities.

That is indeed very true. There is no other body able to approve such things but the FAA and any changes will need to be legislated.

I hope V2 is not a rush job. And I fear that because the full story of JY610 and ET320 is unknown the fix is not based on the complete story. Maybe Boeing and FAA know enough

 

[codash1099]

Prosecutors, Transportation Department Scrutinize Development of Boeing’s 737 MAX

I wonder to what extent "grandfathering" of changes contributed to the current problem. After all, the 737 originated in the 1960s. Surely there is a limit on how old your grandfather can be.

I see I got a “funny” rating for my last sentence. I really didn’t mean it that way. I was questioning how far you could take grandfathering of aircraft developments (extensively used by Boeing to make it easier to avoid the testing that would go with an entirely new aircraft) before you had to say “enough “.

 

[Quickstatus]

Should I be feeling better after reading this?: