Ethiopian 737 Max 8 crash and Fallout

[MEL_Traveller]

Sure, this isn't about the grounding of the aircraft (which has already happened). This is entirely about attributing the cause of the crash to the cause of another crash based on some similarities. Correlation is not causation.

Agree. Just for the public it's a bit of a moot point.

It's not just the 737MAX issue, but other accidents as well that many commentators advocate 'waiting' until an official investigation concludes before jumping to conclusions (and taking knee-jerk reactions like cancelling tickets or travel plans).

I don't think that it's ok to potentially put pax at risk during the 'waiting' period.

 

[Quickstatus]

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/bu...-a-day-before-it-crashed-20190320-p515sq.html

sounds more & more like poor pilot training.

How hard is it to turn off a faulty system ?

They didn’t actually know the system existed from everything I have read. From the article the 3rd pilot trouble shooted it by disconnecting the power to the motors. It seems smart, but doesn’t sound like he actually knew what the problem was. I could be way off the mark, and one of the pilots on here will be able to provide much better input.

He didn’t know about MCAS per se. However he appeared to correctly identify it as a runaway trim and correctly turned off the Stab trim switches exactly as recommended in existing manual - at the point in time when it was still recoverable.

Problem with turning off the Stab trim switches is they then have to manually re-trim a significantly out of trim aircraft by physically turning the trim wheels. Luckily they also appeared to not turn on the Stab trim switches again.

The malfunctioning MCAS put the aircraft not a little bit out of trim but significantly.

That a system can deliberately send an aircraft out of trim is completely against the training of pilots which is to always keep the aircraft in trim

Then the next problem was those pilots didn’t raise the alarm of a runaway trim and the engineers did a quick check and put it straight back into service.

 

[flyer89]

The latest on the Lion Air incident is interesting given the reports of the same aircraft and the day before with the jumpseater correctly identifying the problem and helping to remedy it.

 

[Berlin]

did you read the news article ?

Certainly yes. Hence my post earlier.

 

[jb747]

Jumpseaters or SOs are in a good position to see problems. They are a step back from the actual problems of flying the aircraft, and have good overview of the coughpit. Sometimes the rest of us can be too close to the issues.

 

[KitKat]

Jumpseaters or SOs are in a good position to see problems. They are a step back from the actual problems of flying the aircraft, and have good overview of the coughpit. Sometimes the rest of us can be too close to the issues.

Holds true in clinical crisis management as well......

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Holds true in clinical crisis management as well......

Also holds true in technical diving, I know it's rather off topic, but one of my favourite quotes about diving rebreathers has a slight correlation.

"After my first 10 hours on a rebreather, I was a real expert. Another 40 hours of dive time later, I considered myself a novice. When I had completed about 100 hours of rebreather diving, I realized I was only just a beginner." - Richard Pyle

Conjecture never helps, but real analysis and understanding one's own limitations even if it means eating a bit of humble pie and not assuming outcomes based on expectations/training alone is realistic.

**Edit, My bad. Thought I was quoting the hours for Pilots/First Officers reference. (Long work hours and minimal sleep bad)

 

[Quickstatus]

Jumpseaters or SOs are in a good position to see problems. They are a step back from the actual problems of flying the aircraft, and have good overview of the coughpit. Sometimes the rest of us can be too close to the issues.

Medical crisis management promotes the idea of the “Team leader” who steps back from the detail/coal face and therefore gains situational awareness, ability to think strategically, and the ability to co-ordinate management of the various time competing issues at hand.

A bit hard to call on extra resources when at 37000feet... but sometimes an extra pilot(s) is available - QF32. The Crew resource management on the flight deck likely has a multiplier effect on the actual number of crew. Not sure a 350hr plus 8000hr combo will have adequate CRM

 

[drron]

Yes quickstatus that is exactly my role when called as part of the team to a cardiac arrest situatiion.Assessing the data being produced and making sure the right team member is doing the job they are suited to.
I have to admit though in the last few years with increasing numbers of medical staff called I am more in the situation of supervising the supervisors.

 

[Quickstatus]

Yes quickstatus that is exactly my role when called as part of the team to a cardiac arrest situatiion.Assessing the data being produced and making sure the right team member is doing the job they are suited to.
I have to admit though in the last few years with increasing numbers of medical staff called I am more in the situation of supervising the supervisors.

Last time I pressed the red button, it was difficult to get into the room. One of the first duties of the team leader was to dismiss about half of the turn-ups. The team leader did the TL thing from the doorway. I reckon the D in the D-R-A-B-C checklist in reality means "Dismiss".

Aviators don't press the red button - well even if there was one no one would turn up.

 

[drron]

Yes I am very good at dismissing anyone who isn't needed.

 

[oz_mark]

He didn’t know about MCAS per se. However he appeared to correctly identify it as a runaway trim and correctly turned off the Stab trim switches exactly as recommended in existing manual - at the point in time when it was still recoverable.

I guess we head into human factors territory here. When faced with a situation not specifically trained for, some will work it out, and some won't. And some may fix it, but for the wrong reason.

 

[oz_mark]

And if you need a villain? (seems one has already been found)

The LionAir accident seems to have a whole lineup of villains.

Ethiopean - don't know yet. But one doesn't ground a fleet lightly, especially one that's just had a Continued Airworthiness Notification issued....

 

[NZflygirl]

Nytimes article (behind pay wall) out there about Boeing no longer charging for the optional safety feature the AoA light / disagree thing.

Some airlines chose it and some didn’t including the 2 that crashed.

Couldn’t find a free version with similar info. Would love it if someone else does!

Intrigued FBI involved in looking at certification process.

 

[The man with no name]

Nytimes article (behind pay wall) out there about Boeing no longer charging for the optional safety feature the AoA light / disagree thing.

Some airlines chose it and some didn’t including the 2 that crashed.

Couldn’t find a free version with similar info. Would love it if someone else does!

Intrigued FBI involved in looking at certification process.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/...at-boeing-sold-as-extras-20190322-p516f2.html

 

[JB expat]

I have never been a fan of low cost carriers. However, that was mostly based on creature comforts - I like having an assigned seat I can pick in advance, I hate the way they charge for luggage (although most airlines do now), as well as a sense of skepticism around "what are they actually cutting back on to offer such low prices".

Well, now I know - often, they do not purchase optional extras. Where these relate to seat comfort or number of bathrooms, some might not care. However, these optional extras also include add-on's re: communication, navigation or safety systems (quoting from the NY Times).

Now I want to know what the difference is between Qantas and Jet Star planes - is the only difference "creature comforts" or are there greater differences.

 

[Berlin]

I have never been a fan of low cost carriers. However, that was mostly based on creature comforts - I like having an assigned seat I can pick in advance, I hate the way they charge for luggage (although most airlines do now), as well as a sense of skepticism around "what are they actually cutting back on to offer such low prices".

Well, now I know - often, they do not purchase optional extras. Where these relate to seat comfort or number of bathrooms, some might not care. However, these optional extras also include add-on's re: communication, navigation or safety systems (quoting from the NY Times).

Now I want to know what the difference is between Qantas and Jet Star planes - is the only difference "creature comforts" or are there greater differences.

This is the nagging fear I always had with these LCCs and this is proof that it didn't come totally out of nowhere.

 

[travelislife]

This is the nagging fear I always had with these LCCs and this is proof that it didn't come totally out of nowhere.

Look at this another way. If something is actually deemed a safety feature, why is the FAA even allowing it to be an option as part of the certification process? Shouldn't it be mandatory? I'd like to think ordering a plane isn't like ordering a car in that sense!

 

[oz_mark]

Nytimes article (behind pay wall) out there about Boeing no longer charging for the optional safety feature the AoA light / disagree thing.

Some airlines chose it and some didn’t including the 2 that crashed.

Couldn’t find a free version with similar info. Would love it if someone else does!

Intrigued FBI involved in looking at certification process.

From what pilots around here have said, I'm not sure the optional extra would have made a difference.

 

[Berlin]

Look at this another way. If something is actually deemed a safety feature, why is the FAA even allowing it to be an option as part of the certification process? Shouldn't it be mandatory? I'd like to think ordering a plane isn't like ordering a car in that sense!

It actually sounded EXACTLY like ordering a car in that article. But I agree, that doesn't make it right. As a customer, I'd certainly prefer if my airline has purchased all the available safety and navigation options. And the premium seats, over-sized toilets and in-flight coughtail bar too pleaase